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Do fighters need to finish fights to be highly ranked?

Rankings are subjective.

This simple fact needs to be reinforced over and over again to calm people down.

Sean Sherk is the latest example. Recently he went after rankings that have Kenny Florian and Shinya Aoki ranked above 'the Muscle Shark'.

"There are guys ranked above me, that I've seen, that I know damn well I can beat. Rankings don't mean squat. (Shinya) Aoki is a good example. He's a big 155 pounder but he's got no boxing, no wrestling. Where does that leave you in the UFC? You can't wear pants, so guess what? You're in some trouble. I'd like to see a lot of those guys come here and I think eventually they will."

For those looking for a solid response to the differences between Japan and North American MMA read Leland Roling's excellent piece at Bloodyelbow.com. I will expand upon his points regarding  Kenny Florian's higher rank by pointing out the temporal pressures that go into the creation of rankings. The fight between Sherk and Florian happened in 2006 and a lot has changed in three years. Does that mean that Sherk would lose to Florian in a fight now? Absolutely not. This is why rankings are subjective and adds a certain element of pleasure to watching said fights.

Fightlinker offers a different perspective.

But let's be honest here. How high should we rank a fighter that hasn't won a UFC fight off the scorecards since 2002? Getting the W might be impressive, but are we really expected to extend the same respect to a dude who can't finish fights as we do to fighters who maul their opponents and leave them in a defeated pile clutching at the referee for protection?

While I see their point I have to disagree. A fighter doesn't need to produce a pound of flesh to be a great fighter. Forrest Griffin doesn't exactly have tremendous power, nor does Randy Couture. Lyoto Machida and Rashad Evans were notorious for not being 'finishers' and now they are #1 and #3 respectively (the counter argument to this is that they elevated their rank when they started finishing fights). Are Evans and Machida's accomplishments diminished since neither fighter could finish Tito Ortiz? Absolutely not.

Take former pound-for-pound king Floyd Mayweather Jr. Mayweather was notorious for having brittle hands but that didn't stop boxing observers from realizing his hand speed and superb defense made him the best fighter in the sport.

Sean Sherk's record is stellar, boasting thirty-three career victories with only three loses. Those three loses came against George St. Pierre and Matt Hughes at welterweight and B.J. Penn at lightweight. With regards to St. Pierre and Hughes both fighters held massive size advantages over Sherk. The B.J. Penn fight is somewhat of an oddity since Sherk, a traditional wrestler, decided to stand and trade. While Sherk's punches looked crisp and fast his height and length deficiencies kept him from landing many of his combinations. What would have happened had he employed his excellent wrestling? We will never know.

Now if we were to take Fightlinker's analysis to its logical conclusion we should hold Sherk's size deficiencies against him. As oppose to realizing that he is succeeding, and brilliantly so, despite being below average in height and length. For baseball do we hold it against position players who overcome their size deficiencies to have successful careers? World Series MVP David Eckstein anyone? No, we marvel at their success in spite of those deficiencies.


I understand that there is a certain pleasure in watching fights end in memorable fashion. But no fighter should have to feel the pressure to finish a fight in order to feel that his or her career is validated.

 

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But you DO want to finish fights

It’s the first thing they teach you: Don’t let it go to the scorecards.

A win is a win but if you finish a fight it looks more impressive. A KO is worth more than a decision, and it should be. In fact, look at Florian’s win over Joe Daddy. People compared it favorably to BJ’s because he did it faster. It’s akin to “margin of victory” in team sports and I think it’s one of the only ways to delineate the finite difference between some of these fighters. I mean, at this level, they’re all great – but guys who can finish other guys who are at the top .001% of the sport are greater and the rankings show that.

by jebushchrist on May 22, 2009 9:33 AM EDT reply actions  

I like...

…your point about Margin of victory but I would say that in mixed martial arts there is such a capacity for sudden flash KO’s.

Is Keith Jardine better than Rashad Evans bc he KO’d Forrest Griffin in one round as oppose to three?

watchkalibrun.com

by Zak Woods on May 22, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

If that was the only fight we had to compare the 2 (3). Further, Forrest (arguably) won the first 2 rounds against Rashad before getting knocked out. So if that’s all we knew about those 3, you’d rank them Jardine, Evans, then Griffin.

And for the record, I hate the term “flash KO”. It’s like guys saying “I got caught”. You got knocked out, bro. The ref pulled the other guy off of you. There are no standing 8 counts in MMA.

by jebushchrist on May 22, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

We could be parsing too much if we start engaging in round-by-round scoring for rankings.

I agree with the hate towards ‘i got caught’ I wrote a big long post about Liddell saying it all the time. Sorry Chuck you got out-boxed no shame in it.

But I do think there is a difference with flash KO . With the small gloves and the high impact of power punches it is a lot easier for a combatant to be KO’d then in boxing or other combat sports. It’s just something we should consider, not excuse, in our analysis.

watchkalibrun.com

by Zak Woods on May 22, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was only making the point about round-by-round scoring for the purposes of comparison among those 3 fighters and their common opponents. Rankings are subjective so when you DO have commonalities, I think it’s important to consider it.

My thing with “flash KOs” is that fighters say “I was fine… I just needed to recover”. Well, yeah, but if the ref didn’t pull the other guy off of you, you would have likely been pummeled when you were mostly defenseless. I don’t like early stoppages but I hate late ones.

by jebushchrist on May 22, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

liek Josh Koscheck against Paulo Thiago “I was totally fine I just needed a standing 10 count and I could’ve gone again!”

watchkalibrun.com

by Zak Woods on May 22, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

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