You Wonder Why We Aren't Mainstream, Volume 1: Joe Rogan's Slur Usage
UFC commentator Joe Rogan recently got into a verbal tiff with former Sherdog (and apparently former Fighters Only) writer Tomas Rios. The situation took an ugly turn when Rogan responded using slur words to insult Rios. In this day and age of social media (like I wrote about with the Juarez and MFC situation), we must take care heed of what we put out there. If we're to be "mainstream" like we want to be or at least CLAIM to want, then things like this should not be taking place. The whole event is juvenile. You won't see this in basketball or football. To think, this whole mess started because an uninformed "writer" decided to chastise a commentator's call of a move.
"Joe Rogan calling a Brazilian kick the "question mark kick" during Griffin/Lentz is pantheon level cluelessness."
A "writer" dissing a commentator's statement, not too out of place. Even though this "writer" has a HISTORY of ridiculously negative comments about fighters, organizations, and commentators. In fact, I've never seen a tweet of his that wasn't negative. Rogan responds, backed up by "The Voice" Michael Schiavello, that his term was correct and provided the historical context. So it ended there right? Nope.
Rios no longer writes for Fighters Only magazine. I got him fired. First time I've ever done this to a so called mma journalist, but I've had more than enough of these f*cking zeros clogging up the sport with their incompetent bullsh*t. You wanted my attention, f*ggot?
*insert frown*
I'm not going to comment on the derisory idea of trying to get someone fired because they disagreed with your commentary (even though they were incorrect), I'm focusing clearly on the slur usage. Personal disclaimer: I have used slur words in the past and currently am working on completely eliminating those words from my vocabulary as I mature. As such, I am not writing in judgment of Joe Rogan, this is more of a big picture type thing. I decided to write this after seeing the propitious response from many in the MMA community.
The usage of the word "f*ggot" is NOT indicative of being a sexual orientationist (or homophobe as some call it), I don't think one can accuse him of being one. The term "f*ggot" is a slur towards gay people that has recently spun its way into the young American male lexicon. While it did mean other things before this trend, people's usage of the term is not related to those alternative definitions. Bloody Elbow reported on Rogan's use of the term and Rogan "apologized" for his use. His actual words ended up compounding and worsening the situation in my eyes.
You got it. I apologize for my use of the word "f*ggot." I enjoy that word immensely, and although I do not intend for its use to be interpreted as a negative term for homosexuals, but rather as I've always used it to imply that a person is weak and pathetic, which I believe Rios to be. I understand that in this ultra-sensitive, politically correct world we live in one must be careful of the words they choose, for in choosing the wrong one you can give your adversary a new angle of distraction, as I see Rios is concentrating on that now instead of owning up to the fact that he has no f*cking idea what the proper terminology of the kick he criticized me of describing was.
What's really important is not a hot button insult word, or a disagreement on terms used to describe techniques, but rather completely incompetent reporters masquerading as martial arts experts. Rios is a negative a**hole that consistently insults fighters and produces fight breakdowns that resemble what I would expect from an angry failure with no friends who has spent too much time alone with a thesaurus trying to convince people that he's clever.
I have sat back and watched this shit-head spout out his horrible, disrespectful nonsense for a long time, and was truly happy when he was fired by sherdog, and absolutely perplexed when I found out that Fighters Only Magazine is actually giving him actual real money for the bulls*it he's trying to pass off as journalism. Fighters Only is one of the very best magazines in the sport, and as per my correspondence with them I'm delighted that I'm not the only one that thinks he's an a**hat and a terrible journalist. When I saw that he had opened his dumb trap about me I welcomed the opportunity to shut him up.
As for my use of the offensive word "f*ggot" please accept my apologies and replace it with "c*ck-sucker."
Thank you, and good day.
Now, the etymology of the word "f*ggot" being used towards non-gay men started because the user was equating the target to a homosexual. In layman's terms, he was saying that the target is inferior and "less than a man".because he is "gay" and, in the user's eyes, gay men are less than men. Note, that calling a non-gay man a "f*ggot" is almost always done in a non-friendly manner which is the manner in which the original "f*ggot" was used towards gays. You're are using a slur in a slur fashion. Rogan basically admits this when he says "I've always used it to imply that a person is weak and pathetic."
A "f*ggot" = a gay person
Rios = a "f*ggot"
Rios = weak and pathetic
Therefore, according to the substitution property, a gay person is "weak and pathetic". Yes, when you use the term "f*ggot", you are not intending to slur gay people, but you are slurring gay people. This is not like the use of the word "n*gga" (note the lack of -er), which is mainly used in a friendly manner and not intended to slur or insult. He then says to replace his usage of the slur with another pejorative term for gay people "c*cksucker". This word was also used as a slur and then transferred to non-gay men to equate them to homosexuals and call them less of a man.
Rogan goes on to blame the "ultra-sensitive and PC world" for any uproar this might cause and basically states that the biggest harm in using terms like these is your adversary has an out to focus on. It's not like anyone can be insulted by the usage of the words.
People like to blame the "Ultra PC world" when they can't say whatever they want to say. You can say whatever you want to say in America, just be prepared to face the consequences of your actions. It has nothing to do with being "ultra-sensitive", but it is a move towards a more sensitive society where people are aware of those that are unlike the powerbrokers in this country. It's a hard concept for many straight White Christian males to wrap their heads around, but it's part of being a civilized society. I'm not always the most completely sensitive when it comes to the gay population, but as a minority, I can understand their continued frustration that a slur like "f*ggot" continues to be a part of the American vernacular.
Now I don't care about Rios or even that Rogan called him what he called him. The reason I write this is two-fold. Like I said earlier, the reaction in the commentary on BloodyElbow was disconcerting and the most important reason, things like this can (and will) result in bad publicity for the sport of MMA and can (and will) be used by our detractors to keep us where we are. The sport is much more popular than it was during Dana White's "c*nt" rant and this slur is directly targeted at the (well-known for its organization and rallying power) gay community.
Joe Rogan is one of THE faces of UFC and thus MMA and must take special care to represent well in public interactions. This is not over-sensitivity to what Rogan said, this is just an example of why we aren't mainstream. Could you see John Madden going off on some "writer" making fun that he blew a call nevertheless using slurs? OK, stop laughing at the mental image of Madden on a rant. But seriously, Madden wouldn't even give it a thought. I realize that the MMA community is incestuous and small, but there's got to be a little bit of disconnect between the professionals and the, uh, non-professionals.
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Its real......life......you .....idiots
ok….he calls a guy a faggot…..big deal, did he mean it as “hey ur a flaming homo and i hate you for being a homo” way? no he didnt. he meant it as “that guy is a f’ing douchebag” but ppl take it out of context ….then blame the ufc? sure why not, the more publicity to this you guys are adding the worse it gets, too bad anyone who watches mma couldnt give two shits about some guy being called a fag and neither should u u fucking fag……see what i did there
by Sausage King of Chicago on Nov 23, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
See what I did HERE
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 1:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
see what i did there
…used an offensive slur to prove you weren’t being offensive or using a slur?
by gzl5000 on Nov 24, 2010 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I see what you are saying, but I dont agree.
This is a sport fueled on ruthless violence, I dont think a few non-PC moments is holding the sport back from becoming mainstream. It doesnt help, but I think such an effect is minor. Lets be honest, the rest of america doesnt know this is happening, heck most casual MMA fans dont even know this is happening. I think the rise in MMA over the past 5 years (when the UFC made the leap to get in the public eye) has been enormous and its continuing to grow as we speak. Will the UFC reach NFL,NBA,MLB levels anytime soon? No, but those sports have been around for 80+ years, the new-UFC has really been around for 5.
I see the NFL (players and coaches) making bonehead decisions constantly with their words and more importantly with there actions, and what did that result in? The highest rated tv program in history.
If we're already fighting the fight on the violent front
We don’t need to fight a war with the LGBT community. They are “small”, but well-organized and thorough. I mean you can go at Black people and maybe Je$$e Jack$on and Al $harpton might get involved, but you can quell them with payoffs. Not the LGBT community.
Think of it like the war.
The difference between the NFL and MMA is they are already mainstream. We aren’t. Same thing with violence. Stop pointing the finger at what other people do and look in the mirror. It’s like I tell my Black friends when I critique what Black people do. I’ll point out that Black people commit 50% of murders, they’ll respond “Well, so do Whites”. Who gives a crap what they do? They are up there, and you, WE, are trying to get there.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thats the thing, I dont think this is a war or a battle or anything. Joe cleared things up before anything can get out of hand.
I would not consider an occurrence which nobody knows about to be damaging in any way.
I see what you are saying, but this instance is a non-issue.
I think if it were even to be an issue, lgbt would look to go after Rogan, and not the entire UFC. But its a non-issue.
Did you read his apology? No gay person in their right mind will buy that
He made it worse.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Elton John disagrees.
The LGBT is not in universal agreement as much as people like to think they are.
Against SLURS and discrimination I think they are
Plus, it was a fake apology, Rogan admits it himself
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Then why would Elton John, the most popular living openly gay man, perform with eminem after usage of such slurs when Eminem actually never really gave an apology, just a clarification like Rogan, which caused the LGBT to ask for eminems head?
So you THINK wrong. No group of people has 100% solidarity, they just advertise that they do.
Not all gay people are hyper sensitive, maybe thats a stereotype.
Because he's a media whore
and it would create buzz for him among young people. The gay community took him to task for this
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
which proves my point correctly lol
Not all gays are on the same page, not all hispanics are on the same page, not all blue people are on the same page…its human nature
C'mon man, of course not all of one group will be on the same page
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
says the person who was grouping them into one hypersensitive being?
I already stated this, glad you came around.
99% of the time when someone says
“insert group insert verb” they don’t mean 100% of the members of the group do it.
Being literal for the sake of being literal is silly.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 1:44 AM EST up reply actions
Joe said the apology was fake anyways.
"...Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons" - Douglas Adams
Boring
Seriously, if this is all you can write about, just close the damn blog.
This isn’t the reason mma is not mainstream, certiainly not so. Rogan is a commentator, and he was responding to someone’s attacks. Who cares if he calls him a faggot. It’s not that bad of a word, and it’s only a word at that. I highly doubt it would offend the mass majority of homosexuals. I’m not sure there is a huge homosexual mma fanbase anyhow.
I don’t see how this affect mma at all. Is espn going to stop running the gsp commercial now? Is UFC not going to continue to grow? Will herschel walker retire? I wish, but unfortunately, no.
Notice I said VOLUME 1. That means more than one
“It’s not that bad of a word” C’mon son.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"I’m not sure there is a huge homosexual mma fanbase anyhow."
What on earth are you basing that on?
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by metricjulie on Nov 23, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously.
What, homosexual people don’t like sports? That’s like saying short people don’t like sports, or fat people don’t like sports, or beautiful people don’t like sports.
I will say that the LGBT community does a generally piss-poor job of choosing their representatives, who usually end up as flamboyant caricatures rather than a real-life cross-section, and this sometimes lends itself to the ‘gay people are weaklings!’ shtick. The actual community is just like any other, though.
To say that somehow they don’t enjoy combat sports is pretty ridiculous.
I know where that steriotype comes from
BRAVO tv
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
*stereotype
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
Fuck Rios
Joe’s right, the guy is a genuine dick head and his use of the word fagot was spot on. People need to stop being such sensitive pussies. Get over it.
Yes, he is a dickhead. USE THAT WORD.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I actually prefer the c*cksucker term.
I think it has less to do with a homosexual connotation and more to do with calling someone submissive or too weak to directly stand up to their opponents. Think about the TV show Oz, which is closer to real life than many of us would like to believe.
When Cyril was molested by Schillinger & Co, their enduring criticisms revolved around his inability to properly defend himself (weakness, due to poor intellectual capacity) rather than the specific act and its potential sexual connotations. Now with Beecher, it was also far less about his personal choices, and more about his inability to fend for himself which generated such disdain for him among the inmates. After he went psychotic a couple of times, people stopped giving him anywhere near as much crap.
Obviously, people could take offense at pretty much any term, but I do think that ‘f*ggot’ is too charged at this point to use in a situation like this without a guaranteed shitstorm, much of which will be deserved.
Cocksucker is directly related to homosexuality
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Not always
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
When does a man suck a dick and not be gay?
Outside of force. if you’re a volunteer cocksucker, you’re gay (or bi).
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
"That chick is a cocksucker."
"We just had a near life experience."
Semper Fi' (Now a proud member of Couch Company, 1st Civ Div.)
Pain don't hurt...
Is that a man?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I don't infer 'volunteer' from the term 'cocksucker.'
I infer an action, and generally speaking when it’s used derogatorily, it’s intended as an emasculating insult. The emasculation doesn’t come from the physical act, it comes from the failure to stand up and take a beating, instead.
Straight men call a girl a cocksucker as either a rude compliment, or a term to express that she’s overly submissive. Hell, don’t most straight men appreciate a good female ‘cocksucker?’
I stand by my appraisal. It’s not about the physical act, or its sexual connotations. It’s about standing tall instead of bending knee.
I do.
Hell, don’t most straight men appreciate a good female ‘cocksucker?’
Who dosen’t love a good cocksucker?
"We just had a near life experience."
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I'm talking about referring to men
And do you REALLY think the origins of “cocksucker” is about men who are forced to suck dick not standing up and fighting rather than doing it?
It is directly related to the behavior (or assumed behavior) of gay men.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a young white christian guy, and I'm telling you what it means to me.
I’m not saying I represent an entire group, I’m saying this is what it means to me.
And since your article focuses on people of my racial/age group, and we’re the primary boosters/patrons of this young sport, I thought it would be helpful to have one target demo person’s measured, considered opinion.
What you do with it is entirely up to you.
Well, like I said, most white straight Christian men have lived/currently live in a bubble
of insensitivity.
I’m not denigrating your opinion.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Your above post most certainly does denigrate my opinion.
You’re suggesting two things, first that I (and most white, straight, Christian men) currently live in or have lived in a bubble of insensitivity. Second, your phrasing implies that this should somehow invalidate my/our contribution to the discussion. That’s pretty much a textbook example of denigration, which Merriam-Webster defines as:
to deny the importance or validity of
You know nothing about my personal experiences, and I know nothing of yours. But if you’re going to toss around stereotypes when you believe it to be acceptable, that’s your prerogative. God knows plenty of people do.
My only advice is to stand up for what you believe in, S.C. Call it like you see it, and people will respect you plenty for your positions. Don’t weasel out on things like this. Nobody loses respect for a person who espouses different beliefs, we only lose respect for people who won’t own their positions when push comes to shove.
And with that, I’ll egress this subthread, since we’ve gone well beyond the purview of this particular thread. In Bill O’Reilly fashion, I’ll give you the last word.
I never implied anything
What you stated was wrong, I sought to correct you on that. I never said ALL YCSW males live in bubbles of insensitivity. Your belief that the word “cocksucker” is in no way related to homosexuality is incorrect. Maybe that came from a bubble of insensitivity, I dunno. I don’t know you, I can’t make that assessment.
I didn’t stereotype you at anytime. I’m not weaseling out of anything. I didn’t denigrate your opinions, I disputed and dismissed your claims. Your opinions have been pretty much respected.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 1:51 AM EST up reply actions
"Fuck Rios"
who the hell are you to say what someone is being over sensitive about….hop on the troll bandwagon
who the hell still called people “fa*gots” anymore. isn’t Ro-gaine like 45 years old? grow up because you are still playing catch up to your hair line!
Well.
I completely agree with SC.
If the UFC wants to be considered a SPORT and not a SHOW, it & its representatives need to avoid making such strong statements that, exaggerated or not, will offend groups of people not falling into the 18 to 34 yr old white heterosexual male demographic.
When you work for an organization and are the image of that org., you forfeit the right to say whatever YOU want in favor of what the org. wants out there. That’s just the deal.
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I agree, the issue here is that figures in the sport have yet to put them selves at a “respectable distance” so to speak. You can chat with them on twitter, email them, whatever, and actually get a discussion at times. This means those same figures in the sport will be far more candid, and we’ve yet to see that transition begin.
It sucks, because having reachable names in the sport is awesome, but it’s a two edged sword. When the president of the company is just as candid with his words, it’s hard to believe that those also in the company would want to watch their tongues as well. Although, Dana can give a seminar on the issues with using homosexual slurs.
Eventually, we’ll have to see that line of professionalism drawn, to minimize situations such as this one…it’s not major when it’s just one case, but it does the sport no favors.
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by Kaleb Kelchner on Nov 23, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What are you doin back here? LOL
And don’t tell me that you just happened to be in the neighborhood. LOL
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
^ this
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
The UFC is not a sport. It is a business owned by Zuffa, LLC that puts on shows for entertainment purposes.
MMA is the sport, but it seems this line gets blurred more and more each day with the passing of the competition. It really is a shame, but the fact of the matter is that the worldwide talent pool is that low that only one organization can be uber-successful. I truly believe that if Pride had not fallen into bed with organized crime (not sure if it was avoidable), the UFC would still be #2 and not nearly the force it is today.
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You can say faggot
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by Brizzle T on Nov 23, 2010 1:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I disagree on this one.
Free speech let’s you choose to listen or not. Censorship is not the answer.
One of the main reasons why MMA is not mainstream is the lack of interest in fist fighting from the non macho segment of America. Even many martial artists i’ve met don’t like the sport because of the lack of respect and the number of “bros” they encounter.
That and they don’t like Rogan’s voice; which i do agree on. He sounds like a gremlin with a drive thru headset on.
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by Ionnes on Nov 23, 2010 1:26 PM EST reply actions
No one is asking for censorship
Rogan can say what he wants. He should expect that someone might find it offensive. No one is asking for his head.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean you can say what you want and be free from criticism, it means the government will not prosecute you.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Asking him to change his vocabulary
is basically censoring what he is saying if he were to take your advice. Government censorship is a different matter all together.
Dickhead is the same thing as faggot. An insult to another human to try and emasculate them. Rogan went out of his way to brag about how he got someone fired. That was the far bigger issue for me in this than the use of politically incorrect jargon.
I expect no moral high ground after hearing his stand up.
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by Ionnes on Nov 23, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
No, cocksucker has plenty of gay connotation but dickhead absolutely does not.
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by Symbul on Nov 23, 2010 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why did you bring any form of the "N" word into this?
It has zero bearing on what Joe said and actually makes me believe that you are trying to defend your own usage of a deragatory word that you have been lead to believe is OK.
Would you call your preacher a “n*gga”?
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He brought it in as a contrast.
It’s all dependent on context.
None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"
You simple fool. I'm Black
And yes, I say n*gga ALLLLL the time.
I knew I should’ve kept the Bodie avatar.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, I think the argument “Would you call your preacher a ‘n*gga’?” is flawed as well. It’s a term of endearment (more or less) among friends.
I wouldn’t call my boss an a**hole, but you can bet I call my friends that all the time.
None more gangster.
"What if I told you yut yut Devil Dog Semper Fi oohrah?"
And when I went to church, I did.
Especially when dropping 20 on him on the basketball court.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions
Simple fool?
Yet you call your “friends” a hybridized term of the most deragatory word in America as a term of endearment?
Who is simple?
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Yes
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Deuce has forced me to come out of the closet. If I could, I would keep this sig indefinitely, but Deuce says I am only worthy of carrying it for 2 weeks. I will be honored to carry this sig again after BJ destroys Jon Fitch. War BJ. BJ! BJ! BJ! BJ! BJ!
I told you.
I knew I should’ve kept the Bodie avatar.
Ari Gold make you seem like an aggressive Jewish asshat.
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I've got the perfect new avatar
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
I dig it.
For a sec I thought it was Paul Mooney
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Kareem was that dude
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
When he killed Adabisi
I was vury happy.
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That was an excellent end to the Adebisi arc.
Didn’t see it coming, personally. I thought Adebisi’d get had by incest, not an outsider.
Kareem's death was, on the other hand, dumb
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, that was retarded.
I mean that literally, it retarded many different arcs they’d generated to that point, and lessened the entire landscape of the show as a result.
But sometimes writers feel a need for closure, and the only way to do that is to kill the characters. It’s cheap, if you ask me, but I’ve seen it too many times to believe it to be anything other than a reasonable bit of punctuation.
Kareem coming back to jail was stupid
They could’ve had him be a thorn in the side of Oz from the outside.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Which would have fit much more smoothly into the overall narrative
of the show. His character began as the fiery, blow-it-all-to-hell political activist, but he morphed into a genuinely compassionate, reasonably responsible leader of men (for a hardened jailbird).
Having him cause all kinds of hell from the outside would have been much more consistent with the overall theme of the show, which was pretty incestuous and dark.
The show started to go down hill in a big way during season 5.
Too many quality actors were being stolen by other shows (like Kevin/Bodie from The Wire)
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by RolloTomasi on Nov 23, 2010 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Season 5? Way earlier than that.
Bricks was my dude too. Bruh never ages.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 1:53 AM EST up reply actions
Regardless of the particular slur in question
I think SCM has a point. Joe Rogan is a pretty open guy, with his personal page, posting on the UG (I guess, I don’t go there) and is a comedian which is not the most PC crowd you’ll meet. He is a public figure and should exercise restraint, especially when trying to claim the moral highground against a guy who dissed his naming of a kick. And I think he realised his mistake.
I don’t think anyone took Rogan for a bigot and anyone with a half a head on their shoulders knows that where Joe is coming from with f*ggot or c*cksucker (probably not the best choice of substitute word) is not “The man in question is a homosexual and that is bad”.
Where I disagree with the ‘outrage’ (such as it is) is that people are claiming harm where certainly none is intended or, really, inflicted. Free speech is indeed not the right to say whatever the hell you want without owning up to any of it but it’s naive to treat every instance of a word being used the same. When everyone knows that a word is not being used in malice and indeed doesn’t even really mean what people take offense to, no outrage is warranted. The meaning of words changes over time and is often ambiguous. Heavy-handed censorship is not the solution.
"One thing I will never do is I will never say never." -Dana White
Great post
The argument that words change or “I meant it this way” is such a tired one. If you and your friends interpret a word one way, and you say it in a place where only you are encountering it, knock yourself out. No harm, no foul.
If you use a word in a place where others can hear it, and it’s a word that the vast majority of people still associate, either as the primary meaning or, as SC pointed out, a secondary meaning which is still offensive to the first group since it still implies bad things about those the first meaning is about, well then you are responsible for the offense it causes. It’s really that simple.
It’s the same BS that was played at with Hoelzer “well, the swastika has also been used as BLAH BLAH BLAH.” Yes, faggot has had other meanings. When the vast, vast majority of people hear faggot now, they don’t think someone is calling someone a bundle of sticks, they think they are calling them a gay man. To pretend anything else is to be incredibly thick, or purposely obtuse.
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by JustBlogGuy on Nov 23, 2010 2:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I normally don’t reply with a big, long dissertation in these comments but I have never been compelled to respond as much as I am now.
This is, quite frankly, the most disgusting, despicable and enraging thing I have ever read, on not just this, but any, MMA website.
First, since you seem to deem those who freely use terms faggot as uncivilized and immature, let me give you a little general background on myself. I am 32 year old white male who graduated from a prestigious college with honors. I have a high paying job in the public sector that has afforded me a nice new home and a new Mercedes Benz. I come from an upper middle class suburban upbringing. I’m not from the south or the country and there is nothing in me that would remotely be “redneck.” I’m a registered Democrat and I don’t like country music. That hardly makes me a proverbial cave man.
This is also important as it shows that I fall into the MMA target demographic. Between PPV’s, DVD’s and merchandise (apparel, autographs, etc.); I spend roughly $2000 a year on MMA related paraphernalia. I also use the word “faggot” quite freely and commonly. So does just about everyone I know. We also use other words that would be considered slurs such as the dreaded c-bomb.
I actually came out in support and admiration of Dana White after his controversial rant because I felt it was good to see the head of a major company “talk” the way I do. It added to my deep respect for him as a business leader and as a person. I respect people who speak their minds in uncensored terms, because it shows a willingness to not cave in to “advocacy groups” that are trying to mold societal standards. So many times, people in the media are forced to apoplogize and recant statements because they contain “offense language.” Look at what happened to poor Don Imus over a joke.
This is our fault as society because not enough people are like White and Rogan and more our like our writer here. This has empowered the PC Police like GLAAD. We gave them power. If the first time GLAAD protested over someone saying faggot and gay and someone told them to shut up and go away, eventually they would’ve shut up and gone away. If enough people told them to shut up and go away, ulitmately they would’ve shut up and gone away for good. Unfortunately, no one had the courage to tell them to shut up and gone away. And now we’ve empowered another monster that we should’ve destroyed before it got a foothold.
To bring it back to a popular topic, GLAAD are bullies and they way you deal with them is to stand up to them and show them they have no power. Ron Howard finally did it and in the end, they caved and crawled back into their closet. Hopefully, more people take Mr. Howard’s lead. Unfortunately, reading garbage like this doesn’t help free speech.
Finally, as far as this preventing MMA from going mainstream is a joke. Like I said, the MMA demographic uses the term faggot on a regular basis and that’s the market penetration the sport needs. Plus, for the most part, the word faggot won’t offend anyone other than gays and those who are overly sensitive like our writer and that is a very small part of the population.
by Steve W on Nov 23, 2010 2:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, it only offends gays
And they aren’t real people anyhow, so who cares if they get offended, right?
Let’s all go drink some beer and hit on broads to show how manly we are.
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by JustBlogGuy on Nov 23, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Nice attempt at being facetious. Anyway, my point, is that the offending gays doesn’t matter in this case, since there are few gay mma fans and it is not likely demo to grow.
Now, if they started throwing words like faggot and cocksucker on Glee, it’s a problem.
by Steve W on Nov 23, 2010 2:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You are an incredibly ignorant person.
I say this for your benefit, and nobody else’s, as anybody reading your posts already realizes that.
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by JustBlogGuy on Nov 23, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Now you’re just trying to get under my skin. Nice try but I’ve been called worse by better.
by Steve W on Nov 23, 2010 3:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
please enlighten us.
How do you know there are few gay mma fans?
what about gays who aren’t out of the closet?
do bi curious people count?
how many transvestite mma fans are there?
just curious since you seem to be well versed in people’s sexual preferences.
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by metricjulie on Nov 23, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I coulda sworn you said you was leaving?
Or was that some HIspanic girl?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have professional experience that gives insight into demographics and target marketing.
by Steve W on Nov 23, 2010 3:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And that insight tells you that alienating a large segment of the population is in no way detrimental to growth. You must be great at your job.
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by JustBlogGuy on Nov 23, 2010 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow. You’re just trying to mean now. I’m telling Frank Shamrock!
But, yes I am very good at job. And I don’t see how the UFC is alienating anybody by announcers and fighters talking like real people.
by Steve W on Nov 23, 2010 4:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Your presupposition about who counts as "real people"
tells us a whole bunch about your own bias and bigotry.
You are the quintessential example of Straight, White, Male privilege: you grew up well off, went to a good school, live an easy life, and are completely devoid of empathy. Your inability to see this situation from anyone’s perspective besides your own is cringe inducing.
faggot is the new nigger
lay off saying it around the wrong people because THEY WILL GET PISSED AT YOU. you sound like a neanderthal and a total dick right now. basically the reason why i hate so many mma fans is because they sounds like uninformed bigoted mouth breathers and you are showing yourself as such.
THE ONLY reason Joe Rogan should be afforded any slack is because he has been so great for the sport for so long and because it was in a UG thread amongst a relatively small community of hardcores. If it were Reed Harris or Jens Pulver or frank shamrock and It was on the air, thier shit would be toast. I guarantee you that Joe Rogan would not say faggot or nigger or cunt if it weren’t in the right situation.
stop acting like a dick and grow up
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
by glassjawsh on Nov 23, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
buuuut
this is dumb
joe rogan is easily the sports best non-fighter ambassador. EVERY non-hardcore fan i know loves him (even the girls…hell ESPECIALLY the girls)
I knew you’d get your panties in a twist over this
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
I love the guy
My boxers aren’t even in a twist. I was actually more miffed at peoples’ defense and reaction rather than what he said.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh
helps to read the whole article i guess
sorry playa
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
I'm too spent from last nights BE thread to try to rehash it all again.
He screwed up
he said sorry
it’s over
"We just had a near life experience."
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Did you read the apology? It made it worse
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see it that way.
Rios is a negative douche.
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He admitted it was fake
Look under this post
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
His apology to Rios was fake
not his apology for the word fa**ot.
I apologize for my use of the word “fa*got.” I enjoy that word immensely, and although I do not intend for its use to be interpreted as a negative term for homosexuals, but rather as I’ve always used it to imply that a person is weak and pathetic, which I believe Rios to be. I understand that in this ultra-sensitive, politically correct world we live in one must be careful of the words they choose, for in choosing the wrong one you can give your adversary a new angle of distraction, as I see Rios is concentrating on that now instead of owning up to the fact that he has no f*cking idea what the proper terminology of the kick he criticized me of describing was
there is a difference.
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That was ALL one apology
Read the words that he wrote. He then said use “cocksucker” instead of “faggot”. They are essentially the same thing.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For those of you saying "He apologized"
Wow it fucking retarded he had to apologize for that. fuck this world is sooooooooooo pussy. Joe whatever you do dont pull out your nipple during the broadcast. They will send you to the guillotineUmm… that was a fake apology, kid.
Try to keep up.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 23, 2010 3:33 PM EST reply actions
Obviously, but some people thought it was geniune
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
If this is the shit that gets blown out of hand then I don’t want MMA to be mainstream. But I agree that almost no one knows about faggotgate but I see BE has a bunch of stories up so they are doing their damnest. My take in the end WHO CARES>
"All hail the Flyers" Jim Jackson.
Who's "blowing it out of hand"? You have to be sensitive to the sentiments of others, mainstream or not
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No I don’t. Its up to me to decide what I think is wrong or right or in this case insensitive and I don’t think this is. Our culture gets too hung up on hurting peoples feelings. Every group out here has seen what the “n” word can do for you so they want one too. Don’t say Midget, its little person, don’t say janitor its custodial engineer, don’t say black its African American. When does it stop. People need to learn that one if its not directed at you its not for you and two words wont hurt you unless you let them.
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by darkside3744 on Nov 24, 2010 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Jesus CHRIST.
You DO NOT get to choose what your words mean to the other 6 billion people on this planet. You can NOT ignore the cultural context of saying the word “faggot” in a country where gay men still commit suicide as a result of the discrimination they face, and in a country where “faggot” is still universally understood to be referring to gay people (I will FACEMURDER the next person who brings up South Park) (not really).
Your lack of understanding here is mind-boggling. Groups want their own n-word? I can’t even begin.
South Park
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by RolloTomasi on Nov 24, 2010 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Scary dudes like that
are the reson I carry a gun.
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I carry mine to show off and look badass
Am I wrong?
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
If you flash it all the time
it’s no longer a fun suprise.
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Again I don"t care if six billion people have a problem with the way I think. Though if I had to guess not all six millon would be against me. People need to stop giving power to words. Take the “n” word back in the 90’s rap watered down the word so much that white suburban kids were using it to great each other it lost all its power. But of course some do nothing stay at home types, wanna be activists, and dime a dozen reverends holding fake funerals gave the word its power back. Basically if you put a 250 lb gay man in the cage with an 80 pound straight guy and the straight guy screams fag will the gay guy be left holding his ribs or will the straight guy be leaving with a black eye and a headache.
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by darkside3744 on Nov 24, 2010 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Take the "n" word back in the 90’s rap watered down the word so much that white suburban kids were using it to great each other it lost all its power.
If you really believe this, go say n****r to a black person. Or ask a few black people how they feel about white people using the word. The N-word never stopped being offensive.
I’m not getting your point about the cage thing.
Yes it did
I don’t know what politically correct world you came from but like I said people like you gave the power of the word back. So of course I would’nt do it now but I use to in the past even to my black friends. My anology was that saying a word wont hurt anyone who is strong willed and intelligent.
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by darkside3744 on Nov 24, 2010 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
The burden is NOT on a person who receives the communication. The burden is on YOU, the speaker, to make sure your intent gets across without being offensive.
Strong willed and intelligent? That’s very, very easy to say for someone who doesn’t face discrimination on a regular basis. The short and long term effects of living with hate and bigotry every day are fucking devastating. Don’t tell me it’s because people aren’t strong enough that they’re offended. Are you strong enough to give up using a word you know full well is offensive and hateful to a certain group of people? Not a word that could have an inoffensive meaning like “boy,” I mean a hateful slur like n****r or f****t. How much strength does that take?
“That’s very, very easy to say for someone who doesn’t face discrimination on a regular basis” very presumptuos and wrong. I know your one of those people that assume because someone is of a different color or sexual orientation that you must feel bad for them. Oh that persons life must have been so hard but you’d be wrong. Racism and all other forms of hate are’nt nealy as strong as they were before. But I can see we won’t agree on this so its been nice battling with you and nice touch with the reverse psychology at the end.
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by darkside3744 on Nov 24, 2010 11:02 PM EST up reply actions
No. Just because someone is different, you don't have to feel bad for them
However, you can’t begin to understand things like “faggot” affecting gay people. While it may be just a word to you, it’s more to them.
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 25, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Got this from Rogans website.
Although I really do enjoy tossing around the word “faggot,” it’s so clearly an illogical hot-button word of offense to some people that I think I’m just going to stop using it all together. This whole distraction could have been avoided, and I could have expressed my exact same intent if I had referred to him as a “weak bitch” or any number of other insults that I think accurately describe his writing and his shitty personality.
When I call someone a “faggot” it has nothing to do with their sexual preference, but try convincing some offended gay person that.
In this ultra-sensitive world we live in that word is just too much of a liability, so I’m going to retire it from my vernacular.
At least the last time I used it I couldn’t have found a more worthy target. -Joe Rogan
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So, the whole thing still got us nowhere because Rogan still doesn’t understand WHY he doesn’t get to choose whether or not f*g offends the LGTB community. Frustrating.
Why are you so worked up?
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I don't think he's worked up, he's just aware to the offensiveness this has to others not like him
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by S.C. Michaelson on Nov 24, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
I pretty much agree with this article
I don’t have to be gay to feel offended by Rogan’s choice of words (and I’m also sick and tired of his “queer-street” comment during fights). I honestly find it alienating.
How can MMA not lose credibility if one of its most recognizable spokespersons uses slurs and only apologises to further mock those people who felt offended by his words?
Rogan’s language has the sole purpose of making him look “bad-ass”, but ultimately, all it does is damage the sport’s image.
Indeed.
Rogan’s non-professional public appearance encourages this type of behavior, thus doing absolutely nothing to help reshape that "aura" into something socially acceptable.
(Sorry for the double post!)
No need to apologize on that :)
Then again, unlike Rogan, if I ever got caught up in this and DIDN’T feel remorseful I probably would have just explicitly stated my refusal to apologize instead of veering off into this this.
Dana White’s also part and parcel of this (being deliberately non-professional in public appearance), but when that’s part of why quite a few people are DRAWN to the whole thing anyway (see everyone who likes him for “telling it like it is”)…
No wonder I refuse to be a hardcore fan.
I think we're pretty much on the same page here
I find it hard to admit to my peers that I enjoy watching MMA. Not because of the sport itself, but because of the package it comes in. Rogan’s slurs are just a symptom of the real problem, everywhere you look the UFC is riddled with symbols of machismo (that word really nails it), which it puts on blatant display.
We still have a long way to go if we’re hoping to become mainstream, and thanks to Dana’s ego, I honestly don’t see it happening any time soon.
Unfortunately most fans seem to be blind to this – and completely oblivious to its consequences.
To clarify
By “hardcore fan” I mean “Affliction/gladiator intro/nu-metal/over-macho faux warrior,” not “PRIDE nuthugger.” ;-)
Never could feel the allure of machismo after seeing this from a “British-American” (British, then came over to work for the US) defense analyst:
[CENSORED] itself is modelled on the romantic view of unrepentent southerners (you know, the one that largely assumes that everybody white was a rich plantation owner benevolently looking after his grateful, happy slaves and carefully ignores the all-encompassing sleeze, murderous brutality, endemic corruption, mindless decadence etc that was really the distinguising feature of ante-bellum Southern society. A key thing to look at in that society is the almost-hysterical stress on avenging insults to a person’s “honor”. Truly honorable people don’t talk about being honorable, they just are honorable. It’s murderous thugs who make a big thing about insults to their “honor”.). Taking a look at what happened in the South after that society fell will give a feel for what is in store for [CENSORED]. The watch-word here is “Reconstruction” (and that should send a shiver through the soul of anybody from south of the Mason-Dixon line).
That's a nice quote, I wish more people would read it and take it to heart
“Truly honorable people don’t talk about being honorable, they just are honorable.”
I couldn’t help but think of GSP when I read that, ;)
Indeed.
Rogan’s non-professional public appearance encourages this type of behavior, thus doing absolutely nothing to help reshape that “aura” into something socially acceptable.
using the word and using the word when millions of people know who you are and when you represent a “professional” organization are different.
imagine an NFL commentator using slurs on his twitter. it would be a **** storm. grow up joe rogan. pay attention dana. this is also what happens when you’re lead commentator is a stand up comedian and admitted pothead. not that i care, this isn’t football or badminton or ping pong.
but, it does not come off as professional. act like an adult joe rogan (and dana as well) when he gets into twitter wars with frank shamrock like f’ing kids in the gym arguing over insults and perceived “disses”. seriously.
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by theworldsoldestsport on Nov 25, 2010 1:26 PM EST reply actions
The sport isn't mainstream because
The first event was held in 1993 and the whole thing was as illegal as dogfighting in most US states ten years ago.
Rogan’s usage of the word in question here, or the bigger picture of the culture that tolerates those words has nothing to do with why it isn’t mainstream, and would be little different than the culture of most rap music, boxing, football or other young violent male sports or interests.
NFL and college football people have been in trouble in recent times for usage of the word as well.
SB nation MMA writers want to be more mainstream though, and can’t be publicly tolerating words like that though, with the “rules” imposed on them.
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