The "Teammates Should Fight" Debate is Back
by Zak Woods on Apr 5, 2010 1:00 PM EDT
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Remember when the UFC really wanted Keith Jardine and Rashad Evans to fight each other? Well, that "teammates should fight each other" debate is back in full swing thanks to Jon Fitch and Dana White's back-and-forth at the UFC 111 post-fight press conference.
Dana appears ready to through the authoritarian hammer down like he did when he made Rashad and Jardine fight and when he kicked out all those fighters in EA's MMA game. Wait, those things never happened...
"It's over man," White said. "This whole 'we won't fight each other' thing is over. How long can they go on when they have two of the top guys in the division and they won't fight each other?
"It's crazy, man."
It's like 2007 all over again.
Look, there are plenty of welterweights for Koscheck and Fitch to fight (Hell, Jon is fighting Thiago Alves next. That's a pretty big fight.) and it's not like either fighter has a chance in hell of beating Georges St. Pierre so this is a lot of fretting about nothing.
Besides, fighters invest a huge sum of money and time in fight camps. Thus, it makes complete sense that they wouldn't want to deny themselves those resources, or risk fracturing a camp and said resources over a fight that doesn't necessarily need to happen. It is not like a fighter can simply cross the street to train with another top level Muay Thai or Jiu-Jitsu coach.
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I guess I really don’t see why these guys are so against it. MMA is a sport. It’s not life. I would venture to say neither of the combatants would do anything malicious to a teamate. They go hard at each other in practice all the time, why not get paid or move up the championship ladder? If I am correct Kos concussed Swick a few months back, I also believe either Fitch for Swick injured Kos.
Fitch made the dumbest comment when he said his fight with Kos would take place at their gym for free. Fitch is a large WW, why not go up to MW? His style is the type that could give Silva a little trouble.
i understand it
there is a difference between sparring in the gym (hard sparring yes) and going at in the octagon. you have to deal with who gets the camp for training, or if you are splitting up coaches, alliances are drawn (unintentionally) when trainers/fighters chose who they are going to train for the fight, and they are very close friends.
there is a reason the Klitschko brothers do not fight each other and have vowed never to do it. Combat sports are different than other individual sports.
"That's an Awfully Big Mustache"-Frank Drebin
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IMO, that IS different. They are brothers, not just teamates or sparring partners.
At this point in the AKA guys career, is there that much progress being made by any of them? I’ve seen Kos’s striking get better, Swick looks mediocre at WW, and Fitch just wins unimpressively.
MMA is getting so big now, this could be a great opportunity/excuse to venture out of their respetive gym if they’ve become staggnant like Swick or Ftich.
i understand why people say they are brothers is different, but we do not know that. i have friends who do not speak with their family and i have friends that i consider the same level as family (and i a have a very strong relationship with my family). We do not know the level of closeness based on blood.
however, about the improvement argument, i think you are right. kos is getting better (but prob just smarter with age/experience), but the others are iffy on the improvement scale. although with fitch it is hard to tell because he is better than every welterweight (maybe not alves), but not even close to GSP. so he keeps winning (boring, but dominating). i guess the way to tell is if he doesn’t get beat as badly by GSP
"That's an Awfully Big Mustache"-Frank Drebin
watchkalibrun.com
It’s what it does to the training, e.g., gym time, which coaches work with whom, etc.
Fighters invest a huge amount of capital (AKA $$$$$) and time in finding a gym that works.
You can’t simply walk across the street to get similar services and the other top tier gyms are spread around the country. Why move or rent for 8 weeks and incur more unnecessary cost, while you work with new people?
Unless the UFC wants to offer a bunch of cash up front to help facilitate the fight.
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Unless the UFC wants to offer a bunch of cash up front to help facilitate the fight.
Yes, I think this is the correct solution. Offer to pay their training camp costs at separate second party gymsand have a big nice hug after the match and everything’s cool again. Well, except that you’re hugging a tush-chapeau like Josh Koschek.
I don’t buy the ‘MMA is to personal’ argument at all – only the logistical issues seem relevant to me.
by some schmuck in texas on Apr 5, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't this how most guys train so they don't get Fitch - er, stale?
You can’t simply walk across the street to get similar services and the other top tier gyms are spread around the country. Why move or rent for 8 weeks and incur more unnecessary cost, while you work with new people?
So Fitch doesn’t know why people who have no desire to see him withn a mile of the title find him stagnant as a Martial Artist, but he won’t broaden his horizons for 8 whopping weeks?
I find this awesome. Have fun in Strikeforce, Jon. You and Mayhem are gonna be famous! Well, at least half of that sentence is correct.
by asa on Apr 5, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
there’s a difference from pulling a Dan Hardy and hanging out at Serra’s gym two weeks before a fight and going through a training camp.
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Yep, that's what I posted about.
Changing up the training regimen and his surroundings so as to broaden his horizons. Getting out of the comfort zone is another phrase for it.
So at what dollar amount do any of those guys say, ok lets do it?
I’m pretty sure Swick’s bought in to fighting either of those guys if it’s for a title shot and Kos strikes me as a guy who would do it as well.
It could be their trainer/overlord as well
They’re not jut training there, they’ve also signed management agreements with the gym. So their coach Cook is also their agent, so there’s financial reasons why he would talk them into not fighting each other since they’d pay people other than him to help them.
Not condoning it in the least, just an FYI thang.
by asa on Apr 5, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
IMO, that doesn’t hold water…..whether they fight each other or fight other guys, Crazy Bob would still get commision or whatever for two fights.
That's just his Agent cut
Camp’s cost fighters considerable loot. Especially for title fights.
by asa on Apr 5, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
and it's not like either fighter has a chance in hell of beating Georges St. Pierre
That is the key part of this whole post. That and the fact that GSP has beaten Fitch and Kos handily already. Plus Fitch is the MMA equivalent of C-SPAN.
Hadoken!!
Dumb and Dumber
I can’t disagree with you more. First of all MMA ain’t no team sport, I have never heard of a boxer refusing to fight his teammate and kick-boxers fight guys in their camp a lot ; Golden Glory guys fight all the time. Second I told if I my boss that I didnt want to compete with John Doe to see who came up with the best design plans for a shopping complex I would make no money and probably have no job shortly. Its a one on one sport! Guys cant say no to their boss and when Fitch said " if we fight it would be behind closed doors at AKA" I couldn’t believe Dana didn’t fire him then and there thats complete BS IMO.
Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department
A more apt analogy would be to imagine you work with a design team, your the project lead and there is a graphic designer, artist, programmer and a few other support staff. Now imagine your boss wants a you and a member of your team to compete on a project design.
You can’t do the programming or artist work on your own, at least no to the level your boss will require so you need some help. The same goes for your internal rival.
Suddenly your each asking the artist, designer, programmer and others to be apart of your crew. They are not sure who to work with or who not to work with.
Now you have the option of building a new team. Of course that would cost money, whether it be out of your own pocket or by traveling and staying at a hotel/apartment to work with a different unfamiliar group. Plus there is the issue of leaving your family and support network to work in a different city.
This is far from an ideal situation.
And this is where the idea that MMA is an individual sport falls flat. Top level fighters require, judo, muay thai, wrestling, boxing and jiu-jitsu training. They need sparring partners, cardio coaches etc. Basically, if you are an individual then you are paying for all of this out of your own pocket. But, as a majority of fighters aren’t making enough money to pay for such top class services up front they pool resources in gyms.
It simple economics.
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