An Inside MMA segment that ticked me off; Fight to win or Fight to entertain?
"I fight to win for me. FOR ME"
--Ivan Drago, Rocky 4
Recently, I watched last week's edition of Inside MMA on HDNet and there was a segment on there that angered me as a fan of MMA. First let me give some you a quick background on this story. Antonio McKee is the MFC Lightweight Champion and has not lost since dropping a decision to Karo Parisyan back in February 2003. McKee has currently been under fire for "not finishing fights" specifically from Inside MMA host Bas Rutten and HDNet Fights President Guy Mezger. Both men have said that his style is boring due to lack of finishes and his controlling wrestling style.
The segment included McKee, Rutten, co-host Kenny Rice, former UFC champion Forrest Griffin and the MFC promoter Mark Pavelich (who just looks like a typical "MMA Promoter"). The gist of the segment is this, McKee doesn't finish people and he is boring. Therefore, McKee has stated that if he goes to a boring decision, he will retire because the fans must not understand the sport if they can't appreciate what he does. He states that he will change up his normal gameplan and fight "toe to toe" like everyone seemingly wants him to do. Needless to say, this segment pissed me off.
Now, this claim that McKee is boring is dubious at best. I've seen a couple of his fights and I would not describe them as "boring". Yes, he doesn't finish his opponents but the lack of a finish doesn't mean the fight was "boring". McKee is a wrestler who chooses to focus on that aspect, taking his opponents down and using control and ground and pound to win the fights. Is it not the job of a fighter to win? Especially a champion? I could understand if you're a "Chris Lytle-level" fighter who has come to grips with the idea that you'll never be a champion and therefore should make secret deals with opponents to keep it standing and go out and put on wars. Or even if you're a young fighter trying to get noticed by the larger organizations. I don't agree with it, but I understand the mentality. But Antonio McKee is 40 years old and is already the champion of his organization. Unfortunately, at his age, he's probably not going to see time in the UFC and is focused on winning and putting food on his table.
The notion that he should change up his style to please the fans and the promoter is bluntly idiotic. Like Forrest said "You don't change up what works". The man hasn't lost in seven years. That's like telling Michael Jordan to dunk the ball on every attempt because dunks are exciting and that's what the fans want to see. This is supposed to be a sport, not pro wrestling, not the X-Games, not ballet. This is a fight and you do whatever it takes within the rules of the sport to win. Don't put yourself in danger unless you have to. There's no difference in what McKee does and what the UFC Welterweight Champion GSP does or the man about to get a 2nd try at the Middleweight title Chael Sonnen does. I honestly hope that this is all him blowing smoke and he comes out and does his regular gameplan and gets the win.
Shame on Bas and Guy. As former fighters, they should know better than to critique a winning formula. Then again, they aren't speaking from the view of fighters, they are speaking as businessmen. For Mezger, the more "exciting" the fights, the more people watch and thus, more money for the company. This isn't the year 2000 and this isn't Japan where wins and losses didn't matter and it's all about HOW you fight. There's real money to be made in this. Wins and losses count just as much in this sport as in any other.
The same can be said about MFC promoter Mark Pavelich. We all understand you don't really care who wins and who loses; you only care about the bottom line. How much money can be made? That is the reason behind your interest in "exciting" fights. You go so far as to say that fans want the standup finish and want to see guys get knocked out. Then why don't you promote kickboxing? Why don't you go the Elite XC route and pay fighters to stand up? I mean that's what fans want, right? As much flack as Dana White gets, you'd be hard-pressed to find him saying some idiocy like that. He might call a fight where there's no action boring (Starnes/Quarry, the last 2 rounds of Silva/Maia), but I've never seen him criticize a fighter's winning gameplan.
The fans are not blameless in this issue either. The constant whining of "lay and pray" and calling a fighter a "blanket" leads to promoters thinking in this archaic way. Yes, fans like exciting fights. I love exciting fights. However, a fighter should not sacrifice his wins and losses to be "exciting". Many fans call GSP boring because he doesn't stand up and bang and take people down and works from there. That statement is silly. For the fans that cry for legitimacy in the mainstream, you can't in that same breath cry for knockouts and big finishes. That's like expecting every NFL game to end in a Hail Mary pass. I would say that the percentage of NFL games that are more than 2 scores apart (meaning can't be won in one play) is much higher than the number of non-finishes in MMA. Yet no one will call those games boring. Fans need to appreciate the SPORT of a good wrestler or the SPORT of a BJJ player before others not as familiar will accept MMA as legit.
It's funny to me that the only active fighter (besides Mr. McKee) is the one saying "this is stupid". Forrest Is right, this is dumb. You fight to win.
55 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Fucking A
I second that motion.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Aug 26, 2010 1:39 PM EDT reply actions
Of course not
Winning comes first and foremost. Plus Mckee’s fights aren’t boring (at least to me), neither are GSP’s. Fitch, OTOH, pushes the limit into inactivity.
You can be exciting and win (Brock, Anderson, countless others), but in a sport, you play to win.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
How come no one ever gave Ortiz shit about not passing gaurd and not finishing fights?
The three TKO’s over Shamrock don’t count.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Aug 26, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Tito "entertained" outside of the actual fight I guess
Or he gave us other reasons to “give him shit”
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you call Sonnen boring?
I agree with you on this one, as I watched it last Friday I was cringing in my chair. I thought McKee did a good job of keeping his composure, I mean, they were practically insulting him to his face on national TV.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
I don't think Sonnen is "boring"
Outside of his last couple fights, however, I can’t say he’s been exciting.
As a fan of MMA and not just UFC, the only fights that are “boring” are the ones where they do nothing. I’m always thinking back to UFC 100 with the crowd chanting “Stand them up” while Lesnar is bashing in Mir’s face. SMH.
Yeah that shit irked me something awful when I saw it. I felt bad for the guy, he hasn’t lost in 7 years and is the champ and has people talking shit about his style including his boss. I could understand if the guy did jack shit in the cage.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The real problem here starts at the rules.
I hate this idea that winning is not the desired outcome. WE MAKE THE RULES. Make the desired outcome and winning the same thing. If you stop judging takedowns and controlling positions as winning and instead focus on damage and submission attempts then ‘boring’ ‘lay n pray’ styles don’t result in a win. As long as we have the rules in conflict with what people want the sport to be then fighters will be put in impossible positions. It’s an issue of being a poor game, not being a boring fighter.
@rask4p on Twitter
Winning is the desired outcome of the fight
A decision is winning.
Takedowns and controlling position are winning the fight. Damage is taken into account. Have you seen McKee’s opponents? Have you seen GSP’s? They’ve been damaged. People say Brock “lay and prayed” herring, but Heath hasn’t fought since.
You might as well not have judging by what you’re saying. Why should a fighter give up position to attempt a submission attempt?
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Missing my point.
My comments have nothing to do with the specifics of McKee’s fights. The point is that a fighter being asked to be more exciting at the potential expense of winning means that the desired outcome is not in line with winning as described by the rules. If that is the case then my suggestion is to change the rules such that the desired outcome (i.e. an ‘exciting’ fight) becomes the same as winning.
Personally (and this has nothing to do with my previous statement), I’m a believe in never standing people up because I like grappling. The fact that we now have rounds should be more than restarting. That’s not going to produce a very marketable product, but that would be my preferance. I also think every fight should be 5 rounds, but again, it could drive fans away.
The point here is that fighters shouldn’t have to make a decision between winning and being marketable, it should be implicit in the way we define the game and how fights are scored.
@rask4p on Twitter
My comments have nothing to do with the specifics of McKee’s fights. The point is that a fighter being asked to be more exciting at the potential expense of winning means that the desired outcome is not in line with winning as described by the rules. If that is the case then my suggestion is to change the rules such that the desired outcome (i.e. an ‘exciting’ fight) becomes the same as winning.
Oh yeah, I concur. But you’re sacrificing the “sport” of MMA for “entertainment”. Might as well make it kickboxing with 4 oz gloves.
I agree with the ref of what you said. I think promotions, especially the UFC, could do more to promote the ground game to all the new fans.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree that the sport is hurt. Sport is just an athletic game and we actually make is a better sport by improving the rules. If we’re talk about the abstract ‘what is the sport of MMA’ then yeah, that could be corrupted, but we’ve done lots of that already. Depending on who you talk to, the ‘sport of MMA’ shouldn’t include rules or judges at all. Realisticly, the ‘sport of MMA’ will be an evolving definition that changes based how the rules change. I believe that it’s a fighters job to win, we just need to do a better job of defining win so that the planets align between what we actually want and what the rules define.
@rask4p on Twitter
If the NFL came out and said you're limited to 2 running plays a drive
In order to get more passing in the game, people would call BS. And no, it’s not the same as them tweaking certain aspects of the game.
Not the “sport of MMA”, but MMA as a “sport”. Those are two different things. As it stands now, the sport has judges and what not. Rules are a part of every sport and only a very very small few want “no rules”.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s the CFL with 3 downs and it’s still football. Vale Tudo was just an extreme, but MMA has many many forms and many different rule sets in a short history. Rules are a part of every sport because every sport is a game. In a game theory sense.
@rask4p on Twitter
I didn't say "3 downs"
I said limiting the amount of running (which people think is boring) to promote passing.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think running the ball is boring, and I don't think J. Fitch is boring either.
People just like to bitch.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
I agree on all 3 counts
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems like his proposal would not award points for running, as opposed to banning or limiting it. Rewarding the striking or submission tools and not the positioning that gets them delivered.
"You got to be a man to grow a moustache. Anybody can pay a couple of hundred bucks to get a tattoo. That don't mean nothing. I've had my moustache since I was two months old." ~ Don Frye
So then give 14 points for passing TDs and 7 for running ones
is that more apropos?
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
But really it is the same
When they made illegal contact a non judgement call, it created an environment where the passing game was the best way to score points. So yeah the NFL did kinda say run the ball less, if only because it’s now way easier to move the ball in the air.
Which really has nothing to do with mma
I agree but shouldn't "illegal" contact, not be a judgment call?
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions
And here we go..
The history on the why behind the illegal contact rule change. When the Patriots won their 1st Superbowl the way they shut down the far superior passing game of the Rams was to “chuck” or contact recievers constantly while running their routes before the ball was passed, which at the time put the onus on the official to make the very rarely used (at the time) illegal contact call. Which wasn’t going to happen because the refs wouldn’t want the inevitable blame for winning/losing the game for one side or the other. So the next year the competition council in the NFL got together and made illegal contact a non judgement call and if you touch a reciever after 5 yards its 5 yards and a first down, influencing quite a bit more passing, and artificially (to my mind) inflating passing yardage and scoring. I could go on more, but again this isn’t a Football blog.
ALl they did was take an already established rule and clarified it
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 30, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No. While yes they just “Clairified it” it was probably called 3 or 4 times a season…the refs would rather have called pass interference every time…it handicapped defensive backs… The Reciever is almost always going to get open, because ususally they are faster and a better athlete…
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
While they aren't mutually exclusive, they are incompatible at certain times within the timeline of a given fight.
The most extreme example is when Anderson ducked Maia for two rounds. He wasn’t exactly afraid, I don’t think, but he decided that the risk of engaging even occasionally decreased his chances of winning to an unacceptable level.
in the end, I think it’s all about winning from a given fighter’s perspective. And part of how they should deal with the market forces of people not liking to watch straight grappling matches is how they have, with massive (for the lower-tier guys) bonuses for finishes and exciting fights. They also do the PPV escalators for the top-tier guys, so they pretty much have those bases covered. If a fighter isn’t exciting, he’ll get paid accordingly and that, as much as anything will dictate his approach in the cage.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
As a guy paying to see this, make it exciting or I wont pay to see you. McKee is boring and I have seen him live in the IFL. The man is dreadful to watch. GSP or Sonnen are nothing like him and I have seen both live. McKee is a stifler with little action and I mean LITTLE.
I can care less who wins or who loses, I just want to see exciting fights.
I understand the fighters perspective, but dont really care for it just like they dont care for mine.
Which fights of his have you seen?
I’ve seen a few non-boring fights of his that were comparable to the GSP/ALves fight or a few of Sonnen’s.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, never saw that one
I’ve seen a few of his other fights, including his more recent MFC fight. Not boring IMO
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The notion that he should change up his style to please the fans and the promoter is bluntly idiotic.
Disagree because a more exciting style could lead to a more lucrative offer or bonus which benefits the fighter granted that he wins.
Or he could lose.
And lose money.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why I said granted he wins, he would receive far more lucrative offers which would benefit him so the idea of changing his style is “bluntly idiotic”
Risk/Reward
And also exciting fights don’t always mean more money.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't care about boring fighters.
They’re effective. For all the bitching people(myself included) do about Fitch, he is a great fighter. What he does isn’t easy. That said, LEARN TO PASS THE FUCKING GUARD. Oh, and Family Guy sucks.
Hadoken!!
by Brizzle T on Aug 26, 2010 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Family Guy got waaaaaay too preachy.
South Park is a better show.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Aug 26, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait, what?
Family Guy is too preachy but South Park isn’t? We are talking about the South Park that regularly ends episodes with “y’know, I learned something today” or a variation of it aren’t we?
Yes, true.
But Family Guy and it’s mutant offspring(American Dad and The Cleveland Show) are fucking retarded.
Hadoken!!
South Park does it on purpose
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 26, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
South Park does it in a sarcastic way.
Family Guy tries to force Seth McFarlands opinions on the audience.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
I don't see any sarcasm
I just see it as them compensating for their lack of subtlety. Peak Simpsons & King of the Hill did social commentary way better.
Yeah I know. Purposefully in mockery of other cartoons
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Needs to be "The Family Parkdocks"
That, my friends, is the motherfucking win.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
"the boondocks" is so underrated.
I wish it was more known, I don’t have anyone to quote it with.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
I just saw the Obama episode last night
Yeah the IMMAC seems more of a “Family Guy/South Park/Simpson/AOTS” type crowd.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 27, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
AOTS is great.
I’ve been a follower I think since their first episodes. What a nerd that makes me…
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Winning uber alles.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 26, 2010 5:07 PM EDT reply actions
i was pissed watching it last week also. good on forrost for sticking up for him.
I like the feeling of hunting down what I feed my family. If there’s a beast out there capable of hunting down Brock Lesnar, he would do it and make me the trophy on his den wall. But the laws of nature dictate that I’m going to be the one who goes into the wild and comes home with the evening’s bounty. - The #1 ranked HW in the world...

by 














