The Anatomy of Anti UFC Subversives, Part 2: Edgar Beats Penn Again, Somehow Both Overrated
I was planning on going further into Jonathan Snowden's column archive for this installment, focusing on how someone that accused the WEC of selling fans a fake bill of good with their wildly successful, eminently entertaining, uber-relevant PPV debut and simultaneously advise Strikeforce to highlight their first venture with two pro wrestlers (and I'm talking like last year) fighting each other. However, events move quickly in the wake of UFC PPVs - the ripples of divisional relevance and top level talent colliding run deep - and I've been forced to abandon that angle (for another day) in the interest of current events.
What did your average MMA fan - defined as someone that, while informed about match ups and such, has no idea that I nor any writer mentioned in this piece exists - think of Frankie Edgar defeating BJ Penn? Well, let's start with what they expected. They had heard that BJ Penn was the greatest 155er in the history of the sport. They were aware of a controversial decision in April because of the commercials, and that many thought BJ was in fact victorious. They knew that Edgar winning was a huge upset, that BJ was all but undefeated at the weight class, and that most "in the know" writers (including the two that I'm compelled to rebut today) were picking BJ in a rout.
Then, they watched Frankie do it again. And not just a replay - a better, faster, sharper, quicker version of the same fighter that confounded The Prodigy four months prior. He took BJ down like GSP. He outboxed him. He outfoxed him. He did everything but finish a guy that has STILL never been finished at 155. And this time, when Buffer announced a 50-45 scorecard, no one was surprised.
I think the average MMA fan drew the conclusion that Frankie had did what few thought he could, won two straight as an underdog against a legend and claimed the #1, definitively, as his own. Jonathan Snowden and Kid Nate came to very, very different conclusions. Below (I understand that some of you probably find this a little tedious), I'll explain what I believe is the ultimate goal of this peculiar line of literature.
Let us begin with Jonathan Snowden's UUFC 118: Is BJ Penn Overrated? Facts Point To Yes article. Rather than scoff at the very notion that the best lightweight you or I has ever seen is overrated, let's do some parsing.The raw numbers stand out like a sore thumb. In title fights, BJ Penn is a pedestrian 5-5-1. For every big fight he wins, he loses one in turn.
Let's start here. Two of BJ's title losses are in the year 2010 to the same guy. One of them is to the greatest welterweight in the history of the sport (against whom he holds a 1-1 record and I would pick in a rubber match), one is to the guy poised to take his spot (0-2 against GSP, but the first fight was razor close), and one was eight years ago (another razor close decision). The destruction of Takanori Gomi was not a title fight, but to count it as a "big fight" would fuck up the "BJ is .500 in big fights" factoid, so it's discarded, as is another defining BJ moment:
With the exception of upsetting Matt Hughes at UFC 46, the defining fights of Penn's career have all been losses. Against St. Pierre twice. Against Hughes in the rematch. And now, when confronted by a fighter not afraid to test his mettle against Penn head to head, two losses against Edgar.
I consider Penn's demolition of Sean Sherk - a monster at lightweight and a fighter with losses to only the very, very best - a "defining fight of Penn's career." Then again, I'm not trying to cast doubt on Frankie Edgar.
BJ Penn, when it is all said and done, will be considered a disappointment. From the time, before his UFC debut, that Frank Shamrock announced the "Prodigy" would be the greatest fighter of all time until this latest loss to Edgar, Penn has little to show for what should have been a legendary career.
There's nothing worse than subjectively judging an athlete's potential, then placing his accomplishments to your perceived view of him, then declaring him inadequate to your expectations. BJ's amazing BJJ career and meteoric rise in the UFC weren't indicative of never losing a fight, they were impressive by themselves. His record in main events isn't what it is because he didn't try hard enough - it's because he worked his ass off, lost two title fights in a weight class just under 10% above his normal fighting weight (and Hughes/GSP are particularly large, wrestling welterweights), and consistently fought in tough fights throughout his legendary UFC career. Plus, he absolutely smoked the only man that could be argued as his equal at LW at any point during the last decade.
So today, I was ready to put forth my theory - that all of this is a reverberation of Fedor's loss to Werdum. On that night, I wrote that the MMA landscape was forever changed, as no other fighter would be #1 without holding the appropriate Zuffa title. Many disagreed with this assessment - Snowden was one of the first comments in the piece, which precipitated a lengthy argument with BE commenter mmalogic - and it appears that those folks have settled on the lightweight division to make their last attempt to steal a #1 ranking from Zuffa's grasps.
I wrote just before UFC 118 that it was the greatest lightweight tournament in MMA history (borne out by Maynard's now-guaranteed shot at Edgar's belt), as four of the top seven lightweights on Earth were competing. Well, according to the BE Meta-Rankings, the other three - Gilbert Melendez, Eddie Alvarez and Shinya Aoki - are all outside of the UFC, and that's the only weight class with that kind of schism at the top. I theorized, upon reading Snowden's article, that all of this was a premeditated attempt to discredit Frankie Edgar's win. Then, I thought, if Maynard beats Edgar again - as I believe he will - then they can say that all Frankie ever did was beat an overrated BJ and a shot Sherk, and that one of the three I mentioned earlier (if it sounds familiar, it's because it's been around for two years, they just had to replace Hellboy after his recent troubles) is the TRUE #1 at lightweight.
Which, of course, would be a reversal of current fortunes, and fracture Zuffa's dominance over the sport.
I bandied this theory about. Some agreed. Some thought I was reaching.
Then, I visited Bloody Elbow today.
But the fact that the UFC lightweight title belt is now in the hands of Frankie Edgar, a man who took a one-sided beating at the hands of Gray Maynard, the #1 contender in April, 2008 is making some question who's really on top of the division. ...
Now that Frankie Edgar has definitively shown that's he's got B.J. Penn's number, and yet has not shown that he has the number of Gray Maynard, it's really hard to say that the UFC has the best lightweights in the world. #3 Gilbert Melendez and Alvarez both bring a very similar style of wrestle-boxing to their bouts that Edgar does and are bigger and more powerful. In fact, I'd probably pick either man to beat Edgar.
But then I picked B.J. Penn to beat Frankie Edgar twice so what do I know?
I'm including the last lines of Nate's piece for two reasons. One, because I admire his taste for fine crow in the wake of picking BJ (kudos, however, for being one of us smart guys that picked Maynard). Two, because of that last line in the paragraph - "In fact, I'd probably pick either man to beat Edgar." That's exactly the kind of insidious seed-sowing that sounds like innocent barroom banter. I grant your premise, Nate - but until either Melendez (whom is without a doubt the best lightweight not in the UFC) or Eddie "My Best Win in the Last Two Years is Josh Neer" Alvarez defeats someone ranked above them, they don't get to take the top spot.
That's how MMA works now - if you want to be the champ, you have to beat the champ, and all the champs in the relevant divisions are in one place. Frankie Edgar is the #1 lightweight in the world, and whomever beats him first will be the same. Anyone that tells you otherwise is either a fool or a smart man with an agenda.
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i wish i could rec this more than once
you are doing what many others have tried to do(and got banned for) in a VERY public way (well as public as mma blogs can be) and it’s freaking epic. when i tried to hint at nate’s and snowden’s flaws with my “facts” and my “logic” nate called me “tiresome” and banned me. I haven’t been back to BE since and I don’t plan to (and im sure he misses me)
anyhow, if you believed in a God, you’d be comforted by the fact that you’re doing his work
ups!
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
by glassjawsh on Aug 30, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I dislike both nate and blowden. Good article and I am eating crow for picking BJ and Florian, put a little sriracha on it and it’s actually pretty good. I think the dominance of the “boring” wrestlers at 155 will continue for a while until a mini Chuck or someone who is equally good at wrestling and striking, more than just boxing, will come along.
Gilbert, Alvarez and Aoki are good but still unproven against the best of the best… they have beaten the best of the rest. Big fish in a small pond.
I'm not paid to believe, I'm paid to fuck shit up
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
- the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance.
Reverend Clint over Fightlinker.com
Hmm… Not to take anything away from the accomplishment of defeating BJ twice, but nobody (that I have read in my limited perusal (sp?) of the MMA blogs) has talked about the fact that styles make fights. It seems to me that Frankie Edgar’s in and out, boxing style is tailor made to out point a patient counter oriented style. Also I think if BJ went back to the whole “Best BJJ guy in america” thing instead of his Boxer (for lack of a better term) style he would do better against Edgar. Alot of the analysts seem to think that Gray won’t be able to control the fight like he did in the first fight because BJ couldn’t control Edgar on the ground, but they fail to understand that BJ, while a prodigious grappler, in no way has a top flight wrestling technique or ground control in the freestyle wrestling stay. So yeah I’m with the majority right now in thinking that Gray will beat Frankie.
And on your point about the BE guys do (with all the intentional inflamatory trolling, but claim that they are the place for the “intellegent” MMA fan) while banning people that call them on it or just completely ignore their previous posts is terrible journalism, and I’d think bad for their viewership, because eventually it will cause all of their readership with any knowledge to leave, leaving their site with just a bunch of people that don’t know any better saying “you’re right jon” and “I heart Kid Nate”
I just noticed how unreadable that is
but it’s ok because I’m listening to DJ Craze (@ the Do Over…fantastic shit for real that guy is a flat out god, but this isn’t that kind of site so ya know oh well)
Flying Lotus at the Do Over was pretty crazy. This Craze is someone new to me.
by Brent Ducharme on Aug 30, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear Lord
If you aren’t joking Craze is the absolute best turntablist ever. He makes hiphop cuts at breakbeat (130ish) tempos, spins drum and bass like jesus makes wine, and his track selection and mixing is some of the smoothest in non house music. The Do Over set (and a bunch of other stuff that is quality and legal) can be found at themixingbowl.org
Wait.. that Craze? I had the impression the Do Over was more on some electronica stuff and Fly Lo was about as close to hip hop as they’d be willing to get… my understanding of the scene in LA is clearly somewhat off. I did not put two and two together. Word.
by Brent Ducharme on Aug 30, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Failure above
https://themixingbowl.org/thread/view/104175?gotopost=968352#968352
there it is, sorted properly
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
Yea I didn't get either articles
Edgar wins twice and suddenly BJ is overrated?
And the #1 lightweight in the world must reside outside of the UFC now?
"If I woke up looking like that, I would run towards the nearest living thing and kill it." -Master Shake
We have to take the amulet to the banana king!
Ching chang chong can't understand ya
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 30, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
go back to your country
white power!
not really though.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 30, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Th resemblance is uncanny.
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 30, 2010 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm still pissed his show died.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 31, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
White people took it away
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 31, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
This man tried to warn Chappelle.
“Be careful Dave. White people are gonna take your show. They take everything….”
![]()
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
Even the weaker points of Chappelle's Show
were awesome. I never liked the Negrodamus segments at the time, but they’re pretty hilarious in retrospect.
“White people like Wayne Brady because he makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcom X.”
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
I take issue with the notion that BJ being 5-5-1 in title fights
is an indication of his greatness (or lack of) as well subo
first off we should should throw out his title fights outside of his natural weight class most people he was anything other than the greatest lw in the short history of the sport) if you throw out his WW title fights (1-2) he is a respectable 4-3-1 in his natural weight class.
for a little perspective though lets compare him to other greats in title fights:
randy couture is 9-6 (6-3 HW and 3-3 at his natural LHW)
tito ortiz is 6-3 (mostly against inferior competition)
rich franklin was 3-2 at MW
each one of those guys are sure fire without a doubt UFC hall of famers without the stellar records in championship fights of an anderson silva (8-0) or a matt hughes (9-3) or a GSP (7-2) even chuck liddell’s record (5-2) in championship fights isn’t THAT impressive (and he had the near gimme against Jeremy Horn)
sorry snowden your logic is fail
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
"most people *agree that* he was"
my engrish is fail
my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say
jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open
Couture will deliver, will find away to give us that instant of action that takes our breath away. Of course he will. He’s Randy Couture.
-Jonathon Snowden
Cuz Randy’s record is amazing!
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 30, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No sense
Apparently beating someone who is skilled is no longer a mark of skill.
I can’t believe I’m gonna say this, but “good writing Subes!” You are getting better and better. :)
"You got to be a man to grow a moustache. Anybody can pay a couple of hundred bucks to get a tattoo. That don't mean nothing. I've had my moustache since I was two months old." ~ Don Frye
Quit giving this guy more of what he wants.
Its all true, but he loves being the story instead of covering it. That’s why he writes in that style.
In an unrelated note, this man pictured below is trying to find Mr Snowden as we speak.

He said something about how he was climbing in his window…
John
http://ionnes.wordpress.com
Twitter me @ionnespoetry
by Ionnes on Aug 30, 2010 5:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I just want you to know that I joined this blog specifically to rec this, BE has just plain gotten out of hand with the hypocrisy they’re selling on that site. It makes no sense to me that they can be so critical about how dana white “treats” the media and allow that much fighter bashing and manipulation of facts. Not to mention the way they treat some of the commentors on that site which in all fairness was what got that site where it is. The thing I took I most issue with Snowden’s article was actually in the comments section when he claimed that gets to help decide what a fighters history is going to look like.
He’s written two books on MMA history and writes for one of the five or six biggest MMA websites out there. He’s a dick, but he’s probably right.
by maskedmadman on Aug 30, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Glenn Beck made $32 million last year and has the third largest radio show in the country. Popularity does not equal correctness.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
seconded
Should we now start calling Snowden the Glenn Beck of MMA Reporting.
by Kidroll on Aug 30, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
changed my profile
Now I’m probably getting banned from BE soon enough.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
You need to misspell his name,
because if you spell it properly in sequence, it will show up on internet searches and he’ll get more popularity/traffic/notoriety. If you really want to needle him, and not help his career, you should spell it like someone else here did, “Snowed-in” or something.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 30, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
No Derek. It means I help write the history of the sport. Literally.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 30, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The original mention of it was taken a bit out of context…you didn’t come across as a smart ass to me over at BE when you said it. It was just “Well…I kinda do.” Saying that you write books about the history of the sport…
I found it to be rather funny, not you turning your nose up and puffing your chest. But, I’m stepping away now.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 30, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i thought only winner write history?
I'm not paid to believe, I'm paid to fuck shit up
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
- the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance.
Reverend Clint over at Fightlinker.com
by ReverendClint on Aug 30, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
That was cold hearted and uncalled for.
I hope you’re proud. How would you’re mother feel if she knew you were talking to people on the internet this way? That’s what I thought…..
"I trained with Steven Seagal."
by B.H. Farnsworth on Aug 30, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
you forgot the "re" before "write"
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 30, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
hahahaha
Snowden’s signature is a rating of his own book by his own website! hahahaha
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 30, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If I worked for BE then, I need some back pay.
It feels dirty down here with the malcontents who can’t control their impulses long enough not to get banned from a message board. What a sad collection of semi literate and angry small men.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 30, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Say dude
Watch your words.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 30, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
ha being banned is good thing where I come from. Banning people is the pussy way out unless its some really bad comment. you guys ban people who dont agree with your stupid opinions. It stinks of authoritarianism.
I'm not paid to believe, I'm paid to fuck shit up
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
- the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance.
Reverend Clint over at Fightlinker.com
by ReverendClint on Aug 30, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It's almost like he thinks we aren't intelligent enough
to know that putting a link to his book in his sig line equals getting paid for writing content and putting posts on BE.
Nate at least has some reasoned, thought-out opinions that he’ll admit to getting wrong if someone (or his own experience) proves those positions to be incorrect. And aside from his dogmatic “The sky is falling on Zuffa” shtick, he’s pretty reasonable. I’ve disagreed with Nate before, but we usually had pretty productive dialog.
This guy, I just don’t see it. He’s got skills as a writer, an obviously long-standing passion for MMA, and a pedigree due primarily to a well-received book. I don’t see much else that contributes to the general knowledge base.
I just wish this wasn’t the primary direction that MMA’s online media seems to be going. Like it or not, BE is one of the online leaders and how they comport themselves will influence the blog-o-sphere as a whole.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
And he dawns the cloak of elitism and wields the dagger of douchebaggery…
Why not just come in here say “Dude, so you disagree with my opinion…doesn’t mean I’m here to watch the world burn.” and walk away? You call people “a sad collection of semi literate and angry small men”, but you prod them. Do you wank it to this? Be honest.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 31, 2010 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
haha
Is the air thinner up there on your high horse sir? Try dismounting and rubbing your butt a little- I know it hurts
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 31, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Calm down, Massive Ego. You write two books and are the head writer on the blog with the smuggest group of message-board posters and writers that it literally leads me to believe that your head is so firmly tucked up your ass that you are eating your own colon. Seriously, other people have opinions and your page-view mongering/fire-stoking/intentionally saying inflammatory things just to rile people because otherwise people won’t (God forbid) pay attention to you. You’re the Jay Mariotti of MMA writers. Except you don’t have the talent that he had (and he did) you just have the asshole contrarian role down pat. I got banned from BE for calling one of you guys a dick WAY back, but I’ll say it again. You’re a dick. Just go away.
dude, you literally LOVE the smell of your own farts
I’ve got big walnuts. Gorilla nuts.
by Austin Martin on Aug 30, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly can't remember which category this falls under
But this is a logical fallacy.
Just because he’s got these credentials does not make him correct.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
Yeah I think that's it
I was going to say appeal to popularity but that has a different meaning.
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
I agree wholeheartedly
I don’t understand how Edgar and BJ are suddenly being labelled overrated. This is nonsense.
However, I do want to say that Melendez did beat someone ranked above him: Aoki. Back then Melendez was ranked below Aoki. That was a great matchup which shows you what is possible when a promoter is willing to take a risk to the perception of his belts to make a great matchup. Now he’s trying to put together Melendez-Alvarez for us.
Unfortunately, the UFC has no interest in risking the legitimacy of its titles with these cross-promotional fights, so we’ll never see Melendez fight Edgar or Penn unless he jumps ship.
Bellator will never let Alvarez-Melendez happen. I’d love to be wrong, but there it is.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 30, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
Bjorn Rebney has been all for it ever since Gilbert said he’d like to fight Alvarez
twitter.com/GotaHemmi
instrength.com <-- Best MMA forum
by Brian Hemminger on Aug 30, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
They were going to let Hector Lombard fight Paulo Filho even before Filho drew with Dennis Kang. Filho would have been the decisive favorite in that fight.
I think Bellator would absolutely allow Alvarez vs. Melendez to happen as long as it was at like 160 catchweight. The publicity would be huge for them even if he lost. StrikeForce has more to lose though so I don’t know if that will happen unless they run out of challengers for Melendez (although it’s not like they have a whole lot right now).
lol..."snowed-in" and his partner " nate the not so great " are the "dumb and dumber" of mma journalism..here's my article
Hilo, Hawaiian native B.J. “The Prodigy” Penn, once the UFC’s 155 mainstay—and former top five pound for pound MMA fighter, was back in action Saturday night at the TD Garden in Boston, Massachusetts, at UFC 118.
Penn, in his last outing, at UFC 112 "Invincible," in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, lost his beloved lightweight title in a “narrowly” scored contest to a “game” young contender from Toms River, NJ, named Frankie Edgar.
This weekends rematch would be Penns opportunity for redemption, but the defending champion Edgar—who seemingly has the strength and quickness, and certainly the cardio of a small Mountain Lion, would have none of it.
Penn was once again beaten at every turn. Even his—once legendary—jui jitsu seemed to be of no use to him, as Edgar continuously out boxed, out wrestled, and thwarted his every submission attempt.
The once elite cagefighter is only 31 yrs old, yet it seems as if he has been in the game forever. Who knows, maybe it’s now time for him to retire?
The submission specialist known as “The Prodigy” first appeared at UFC 31: " Locked and Loaded," in May of 2001. There he demonstrated his stand up skills in a 4 min. thrashing of Joey Gilbert.
Penn then went on to accomplished many great things in the sport.
Whatever the future for Penn may bring forth, we certainly can no longer place him among our top-ten “pound for pound” MMA fighters.
That handle should now rightfully go to a fighter named Edgar; who showed us some of his true championship qualities this weekend by so dominantly and successfully defending his UFC title.
He has worked hard for it, and he deserves it.
STOKER MAC
Just think of how fun it will be when Strikeforce goes belly up and Japanese finally gets put out of its misery with the none to soon demises of Dream and Sengoku. Then we can all laugh at the haters when the UFC is officially the only game in town, even though it already is.
by Steve W on Aug 30, 2010 6:22 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
there will always be a place for smaller promotions,
gotta start fighting somewhere.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
The key is smaller. Only feeders. No competition. Especially dogshit Strikeforce. Remember, as long is there is ever perceived competition for the UFC, the crazy Russians of M-1 win. And no one wants that.
PRIDE was the last time the UFC had real competition.
SF, DREAM, BELLATOR, ect.. don’t rate.
Semper Fi'
WatchKalibRun.com
Pain don't hurt...
true
they are just held up as competition by he media in order to keep the storyline going
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 31, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't want the UFC as the only game in town
Toronto FC - Where road games are forfeited and we STILL have no idea how to play from behind.
I do kind of want DREAM to die at this point.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Some are just concerned about that butter giving MMA a heart attack
we each must become like fishermen, and go out on to the dark ocean of mind, and let your nets down into that sea
by Barack Lesnar on Aug 30, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
And some want us to swear off animal products entirely,
but know that if they state their agenda openly, they’ll get scoffed out of the room.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 30, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Strikeforce
Strikeforce is doing quite well. A good card last time, and Noons Vs. Diaz should be an all-out war!!!..I can’t wait !
cagestoker-ifithd
We all need to face facts...
BloodyElbow has some terrible writers.
"One should always be cold minded and remember that a ridiculous incident may occur any time."
by At Least On Paper on Aug 30, 2010 7:38 PM EDT reply actions
Gotta say I’m loving the McCarthyite tone of these posts. Dangerous subversives indeed.
(Personally, I’d rather read Snowden’s stuff, as hyperbolic as it may be, than mindless UFC boosterism. If I want the latter I can just go to the latest Dana White interview.)
But isn’t the opposite true but in reverse, Snowden has an almost Josh Gross level of hate for the UFC (and I know Gross just really can’t stand Dana White) so It almost comes off as mindless “there’s better fighters in other orgs, so there is no legitimacy to the UFC belts” I know that’s not exactly what is said, but I hope I’m getting my point across.
" UFC boosterism. If I want the latter I can just go to the latest Dana White interview" WTF
UFC boosterism?, excuse me “Amoure”, but stating facts, such as giving the UFC it’s proper credit for being the obvious worlds top org, with greatest pool of mma fighters ever assembled, is far from UFC boosterism!
Boosterism— is “nut-hugging” such as the Fedor fanboys, who heap undeserved praise upon a corrupt, "fly by night Japanese orgs, who are notoriously steroid riddden.
OR upon an overrated, flatfooted Russian heavyweight who —most times, gets the living snot beat out of him before fluking one of his “hail Mary” sambo punches, or getting caught in a “white belt” submission triangle choke.
cagestoker-ifithd
whoa whoa whoa
I was with you until you started calling Fedor (who could easily make the cut to 205) overrated. The guy went on a damn near 10 year undefeated run where the only loss before that was on an illegal elbow cut in a tournament, almost like he didn’t lose really. Destroyed the absolute best at Heavyweight during his Pride run, and IS the greatest heavyweight (and possibly fighter) in modern MMA. Just because he got caught in a “white belt” triangle shouldn’t change that. Hell GSP got caught by Matt Serra from a “white belt” strike, does that immediately make him overrated?
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
Really? Writer beef?
I mean I could understand if dude had a point you didn’t like or whatever, but a whole “series” on why he sucks…I dunno.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 30, 2010 8:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
obviously Subo has more than one gripe against Snowden
I'm not paid to believe, I'm paid to fuck shit up
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
- the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance.
Reverend Clint over Fightlinker.com
by ReverendClint on Aug 30, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Should probably write a letter
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 30, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
letters are for old people and homo’s… so i guess subo should write a letter
I'm not paid to believe, I'm paid to fuck shit up
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
- the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance.
Reverend Clint over at Fightlinker.com
by ReverendClint on Aug 30, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Not speaking for subo,
but since we’re generally on the same page I’ll say why I agree with what he’s writing, and support him in doing so.
It’s not about Snowden, or Nate, or Thomas. It’s about a position which many MMA writers/bloggers undergo insane mental contortions to support. I made a comment in a previous post about a sort of popularity index that the online media use for grading fighters’ actual abilities, rather than simply their popularity, and that’s pretty directly related to what subo’s talking about.
It’s ok to write that way as a business model if you’re just interested in the quick buck, but it’s intellectually dishonest at best, and destructively subversive at its worst. I think subo’s the only guy to get a reasonable pulpit and call it like he sees it. The groupthink you see at BE and (thankfully only) a few other places is disingenuous and possibly dangerous to the sport.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 30, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah, it's about Snowden
If it weren’t, there’d be others included.
I don’t see “groupthink” at BE. You must not look in the right places. I see a lot of spirited debate, much more so than any place I’ve frequented. If you can name a place that has better MMA discussion, please post their names. I’d like to see.
This isn’t to defend BE as I recognize some flaws they have, but this “series” of articles seems…
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 30, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I joined BE in June of 2008 and had lurked for a few months before that,
and I’ve noticed the same trends that subo is pointing out. I mean, it’s possible I’m just off-base here, which is fine if that’s what you think. Everyone’s got their opinions, and I generally like yours, so there’s that.
Hell, I got banned for saying when Nate and subo went head-to-head, Nate ended up looking more like Cotto than Pacquiao (is that even an insult? Cotto was a fucking warrior in that fight and gained a ton of respect/admiration in the boxing world for it) and that subo’s banning was ‘weak.’
I just don’t see a way to package that as anything but suppressive.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 31, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I dunno
I’ve never experienced a “ban” or seen someone get banned that didn’t have it coming to them. That piece of shit up there Subo, I never like him, I never trust him. For all I know, he had me set up and had my friend Angel Fernandez killed.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 31, 2010 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I understand your mistrust of my statement.
It makes sense, since I usually felt the way you do about bannings..the people that get them deserve them.
They wiped out the subthread, but it literally went as I said (I think that is an exact quote, the one about Cotto/Pacquiao…my memory is pretty good on those things) and my final post there was one word: weak
Now? My ban message is as follows:
You are banned from Bloody Elbow.
You can browse the blog, but you can’t participate.
You broke rule #4. How’s this for weak?
Draw your own conclusions. I’m convinced I’m right, but I understand if others don’t agree. My position would seem unreasonable.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Aug 31, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure there have been shitty bans
I just wanted to use a Scarface quote.
My opinion is this…beef with BE writers should stay there. And that’s what this seems to be. A beef with a writer (or two). Not a critique on the media as a whole but regular beef. Reporters should never be a story.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 31, 2010 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes reporters make themselves the story.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't think this is one of those cases
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 31, 2010 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't think of many other reporters...
Who are so willfully trying to draw attention to their articles by being deliberately “controversial”
You use “reporter” in a deliberately misleading sense. Or else you don’t see the difference. But I am not a reporter. I don’t think anyone on our site is. If I wanted to be in the business of breaking “news” by bribing fighters to share their latest opponents with me I would work for another site. That’s press release stuff. I write feature articles and opinion pieces. It’s not the same.
Besides, this piece – it isn’t remotely controversial. People have been saying the same things about Penn since UFC 35. That’s because when the spotlight is brightest he folds more often than not. The record is a fact. My interpretation of it is my opinion, as it stood on the night of the fight at 3 AM after putting in work on another site all night. It’s an opinion. It amazes me that you would really want to see an editorial piece written in some milquetoast fashion:
“BJ Penn loses another title shot. I think he’s overrated historically, but maybe not. I can’t decide”
That is a shitty headline and would be a shitty article. Make your stance, support it, and then listen to the fanboys complain because they don’t think it’s fair to judge a fighter based on their objective performance in the cage.
The idea that I would write about BJ Penn’s 10 year career and how he will be perceived in the future so I could secretly prop up the case to rank Gil Melendez as the top fighter in the world is, frankly, batshit insane blather.
by Jonathan Snowden on Aug 31, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
this is piece is more legit than 90% of Snowden's articles
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 31, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it's pretty bad.
The writers have taken on a very tabloid-y stance, which draws in pageviews….but it’s painful sometimes to watch them turn the posters on the boards into parrots spouting off the same opinions at the original posters.
95% of BE posters pretty much have the same opinions on a lot of fighters, and they’re reinforced by the articles posted. The same website will post 20 articles bashing the head of the UFC and have another writer bitch that they can’t get a credential. They’ll bash a fighter to death and then bitch when the fighter calls them out on it.
It’s just like watching those tabloid shows, where papparazzi hound some celeb until the celeb snaps, then they write the article about how crazy and out of control they are. I’ve watched the BE writers (Kid Nate and Snowden, but to a lesser extent Fagan and some of the other guys) do this shit and it’s painful. I’m ravenous when it comes to MMA news….and BE has one of the few comment boards that has literate, non-retarded people posting. But sadly, they seem to be more interested in steering the site and comments towards trollbait topics….good for business, I guess, but it sucks to see MMA turned into a tabloid.
by Jason H. on Aug 31, 2010 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LMAO..
Sorry couldn’t help myself , Amor set himself for a great-counterpunch "..lol
cagestoker-ifithd
I don’t see this conclusion being argued against by Snowden’s article at all. Instead, it looks like he calls into question whether or not Penn is truly among the sport’s greats or if he is merely very very good. I think he’s probably right, actually. He might not make a holy trinity. Maybe if you extend it to a full Last Supper sized table of guys, he appears.
start here. Two of BJ’s title losses are in the year 2010 to the same guy. One of them is to the greatest welterweight in the history of the sport (against whom he holds a 1-1 record and I would pick in a rubber match), one is to the guy poised to take his spot (0-2 against GSP, but the first fight was razor close), and one was eight years ago (another razor close decision). The destruction of Takanori Gomi was not a title fight, but to count it as a “big fight” would fuck up the “BJ is .500 in big fights” factoid, so it’s discarded, as is another defining BJ moment[/quote]Let’s call him 6-5-1 then. Is that really that much better a record? Heck, let’s make it 7-5-1. That still isn’t stellar.
consider Penn’s demolition of Sean Sherk – a monster at lightweight and a fighter with losses to only the very, very best – a “defining fight of Penn’s career.” Then again, I’m not trying to cast doubt on Frankie Edgar.[/quote]Sherk being a monster lightweight is certainly a point of argument. He’s 3-2 at the weight. He could be .500 there shortly.
record in main events isn’t what it is because he didn’t try hard enough – it’s because he worked his ass off,[/quote]How can you know this with any certainty? If anything from Penn’s career can be deciphered through interviews and in ring results, its that Penn didn’t try hard enough. He had the talent, just not the extra drive that someone like Anderson Silva, Fedor, or George St. Pierre had to constantly seek self improvement. He’s a man who has openly admitted he doesn’t like to train.
So much of the rest of this is unformed opinion. “Legendary UFC career”…man, Vitor Belfort has a legendary UFC career. Doesn’t make him an all time great light heavyweight or middleweight. I’m not exactly sure what you’re arguing against, in fact. That BJ Penn was wrongly asserted to be among the untouchable elites of the sport? That is how he was marketed and treated from day 1. I’m not sure how any of that is then anti-UFC or denies that Edgar is the top lightweight.
Oh man, quotes didn’t work. That sucks. Sorry.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 30, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Try this shit again
I think you have good points
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 30, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ehh, I would, but I don’t think there’s really any possibility of discussion with this. I could bust ass and break out piles of old Penn interviews from FCF or whatever years back, but what good is it going to do?
Ultimately you have a guy who writes about MMA and makes some scratch on it, and then you have a guy who is, best I can tell, just some super fan of the Zuffa promoted fights who has decided to commit himself to coloring anything that the first guy says as being anti-UFC. This whole article is a guy posting how he perceives the article subliminally reads followed by selected passages and thereof interpretations like its anti-Zuffa apocrypha. Like this is way, way out there.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 31, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
My issue is
The whole “greatest of all time” whatever thing is stupid. It’s completely subjective, and with almost every fighter you can pick apart their record, especially years after the fact. I don’t even like BJ Penn, but the guy did pretty much rape the LW division so hard that nobody thought he could be beat even after he got beat.
I’d argue that rolling through the competition he did is a lot more impressive than Anderson Silva rolling through a bunch of guys who preferred to jump into the easy division rather than cut to 170 or fight at 205.
So if it's "subjective"
Why do so many people have a problem with his opinion?
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 31, 2010 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions
A lot of people have opinons
And when people start declaring people the greatest based on wonky ass critieria that doesn’t apply to other people that are “the greatest” I’ll call them out on it.
The thing is, Snowden gives off a vibe that basically says one of two things…he’s either deliberately saying things he doesn’t believe to incite people, or he’s a cranky old guy who thinks all things old are better than all things new, even though our sport is only like 20 years old. Either of which are shitty.
It’s one thing to go out and write your opinion, but it’s another to just try to rile people up for the sake of traffic. It’s a proven model, it works. But you can’t really argue with the people calling Snowden the Glenn Beck of MMA. If BE wants to be the FOX News of MMA sites, that’s their choice, but I’d rather see a high quality content aggregate than a bullshit tabloid troll site.
Also, if Snowden is the Glenn Beck of MMA, Kid Nate is the O’Reilly.
Its not that he “raped it so hard” though. People were wanting him to move up to welterweight because they imagined there was no one at lightweight who could even approach his greatness as a fighter immediately after the Florian fight last year. Its kinda tough to argue then that Snowden doesn’t have a point then. That sort of talk was completely delusional; A vast overestimation of BJ Penn’s skills as a fighter. It turned out he couldn’t make 4 defenses of his belt. Is that wrong to write down? Further, how is it “anti-Zuffa” to do so?
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 31, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean I'd like to bust Franklin McNeil's chops all the time
I’ve poked fun a lil, but I’d never write 2 (going on more) articles about him that are just nitpicky.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Aug 31, 2010 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, and Sherk’s other loss at lightweight other than BJ is… Frankie Edgar!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So he has a record of .600. How many monsters have a .600 record? The guy hasn’t done anything near enough to justify being called such a thing.
by VirtualBalboa on Aug 31, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
A record hardly states much in all actuality.
you could have a fighter with a .600 record fighting the best in the world and at much much higher weight classes than his own.
Then you could have a 1.000 fighter who is fighting cans. Is it safe to say that the perfect record fighter is better?
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 31, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's funny to see the argument against validating someone's accomplishments
at a higher weight class than the one in question. Isn’t it generally accepted that fighting larger opponents is more difficult?
It’s not a snipe, it’s an interesting point I’ve observed that we see people discrediting accomplishments both ways on the weight class continuum
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Who did Sean Sherk beat at welterweight that meant something when he beat them? Nick Diaz, OK. Pretty good fighter. Someone Subo thinks is totally overrated and sucks, but someone most people recognize is pretty good. Next best….Benji Radach? Jutaro Nakao? Gerald Strebendt of 2004 is easily one of the 5 best welterweights he ever beat. The guy made a career largely out of fighting tomato cans in shows no one watched back at the time when everyone was trying to watch everything.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
A monster is a guy who demolishes top opposition over and over again. Mike Tyson was a monster. Jon Jones has, as a prospect, looked like a monster. Fedor looked like a monster in PRIDE and fighting for Affliction. Sean Sherk? He is a pretty good lightweight who was gifted a short and roid tainted reign as champion after having never competed in the weight class prior to fighting for the belt. He was a pretty good but never great welterweight prior to that who’s record of wins consists of a lot of very young developing fighters and a whole lot of “Who?”
I have the same problem calling him “a monster” as I do “dominant”. He was less of a lightweight monster than Arlovski was a heavyweight monster in the UFC. He was roughly as dominant as Andrei Arlovski was at heavyweight.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh: How many “monsters” in a weight class never win by stoppage? That seems the most bizarre part of the argument to me. He doesn’t have a fantastic record, he’s a known roider, he doesn’t stop fighters, and he’s now fighting 3rd on a card and an underdog to an undefeated prospect who might not be top ten.
by VirtualBalboa on Sep 1, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Mrs. Snowden, is that you?
"I'm not Dog the Bounty Hunter, I don't issue apologies. And you're not going to be the first one to get one out of me." - Sonnen
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
RIP Sherdog (6/26/10)
No, that's tylerdurden
I got him banned from BE a reeeeeeeeeeeally long time ago.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you sir
For saying what I think, but dont have nearly the time to create
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
I'll say this to keep kayfabe
BJ doesn’t fight well if you push back on him. If he can go out and dominate he’s the best in the world. If a fighter decides to fight back, BJ folds. It’s what will define his career. A fighter with all the physical gifts/potential in the world who can’t stay in a fight. That’ll be the way we remember BJ Penn’s career.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
Agree with this
If Penn doesn’t dominate round 1, the fight is over
I am really not sure about all this. It really does look like borderline personal attacks on the credibility of two bloggers over their opinion. First of all, what Snowden and Kid Nate do is blogging, not investigative journalism, and thus should not be held accountable on the same kind of standard that are required by the numerous journalism associations. They are simply expressing their opinion over the product they are given. Do they have Pride-coloured glasses? Probably, but it doesn’t matter.
Second, I think Snowden’s point is more that the two losses to Edgar does impact Penn’s legacy as the best of his era (the words chosen to say it were a little more inflamatory than that but this is blogging, you want to have eyeballs on the page and you want comments, just like this post is doing.) Is it that outrageous to think that losing twice to a guy you were supposed to beat (according to all experts) affects your legacy? I mean Randy Couture is the legend he is for the fights he wasn’t supposed to win, not the James Toney fight. If GSP had lost that rematch to Matt Serra, do you think he would still be the greatest ever at the weight? I don’t think so, Matt Hughes would be towering over him in the public opinion.
Third, saying that all the best fighters in all the divisions are in Zuffa organizations is a bit misleading. I would argue Marlon Sandro just for the sake of it. Could Alvarez beat Edgar? Possibly, I don’t know, I think it is possible. Is it that outrageous to think so? Same with Melendez?
The hell did I write that you consider a “borderline personal attack”?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
to be precise
“Suboticki” was your hainus crime in writing
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 31, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
How about that title: Anti-UFC subversives. Not exactly a compliment. And the whole slant that both are out there to overthrow the UFC’s dominance like some sort of organized militia…
I think they’re true believers, and Nate (at least earlier this year) was honest about his opinion that co-promotion is bette for the sport.
I don’t call them stupid or accuse them of doing anything other than furthering what they sincerely believe to be the best model for the sport. I just say they’re wrong.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s not exactly what you are saying in those past two articles. If you disagree with that and that is YOUR agenda behind the articles then you need to be saying that up-front and explaining that your beef is just that. In this particular case you nitpick on details to cry conspiracy.
I’m very up front about my belief that one world Zuffa domination of the top talent is good for the sport. What’s infuriating is that those that disagree don’t come out and say it – instead they snipe, sow seeds of doubt and demean fighters because doing so helps their case.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 31, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
You are up front about it as a member of the community, not necessarily as an author on this site. As a relatively inactive lurker, your beliefs towards co-promotion where only known in passing and not exactly fresh on my memory when I read those two posts. In return they sound just as insidious as you make Kid Nate’s and Snowden’s.
the two posts werent about his belief on co-promotion though
the two posts are pointing out the fact that these writers are trying to write to lessen the credibility of Zuffa one fighter at a time by skewing numbers and selectively interpreting parts of history while leaving out others- one fighter at a time.
Whether or not he believes that it is a positive to have all fighters under one umbrella is not really necessary information in these two articles, as it is not necessarily relevant to these two articles.
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Aug 31, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point.
I think the term ‘subversive’ was pretty much dead-on. That’s what the methodology fits under, and subversion is pretty much the only way to get an obviously less-than-stellar idea like co-promotion (or Zuffa dominance is bad for the sport) over on the readers. It’s ok to use that tool, but it’s also ok for someone to call the author on it. Then it’s up to the author to defend his position or ignore the attacks.
For the most part, the author in question has been defensive of his positions, and generally speaking he’s been able to present pretty good logic to support his (sometimes insane) positions. But in this post, we’ve seen some holes in that defensive maneuvering, much like subo expected.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Nobody is saying he is stupid
However there are certainly a lot of stupid sheep people that don’t have the faculties to see what the read as what it is, but instead only see it for what it says
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by Chris Toffer on Sep 1, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
new post
‘Mayhem’ Miller Diaz ‘Grudge Match’ on Hold: http://digg.com/news/sports/strikeforce_jason_mayhem_miller_vs_nick_diaz_grudge_match_on_hold
cagestoker-ifithd
Fuck you
Greedo doesn’t shoot first.
/sarcasm
Better known as Black Lesnar
Read me at WatchKalibRun
by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 1, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions

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