Called It - Jonathan Snowden Asks if the #1 Lightweight Really is in the UFC

by Derek Suboticki on Sep 17, 2010 11:01 AM EDT

For those that doubted me!

I was accused of reaching when I interpreted the recent brouhaha concerning BJ Penn's place in history as a backdoor attempt to rob the UFC 155 lb belt of legitimacy. "No," I was told, "that's not it. There are just serious, substantial evidence that BJ Penn, nor anyone he ever beat, was ever that good. Strength of schedule, shmrength of shmedule - he lost to good fighters sometimes, so he stinks. It has nothing to do with Frankie Edgar, Eddie Alvarez or Gilbert Melendez."

Behold!

When Frankie Edgar upset BJ Penn, not once but twice, it was a real paradigm shift in the way many fans view the sport's lightweight division. We had collectively anointed Penn the best fighter in the world at 155 pounds and assumed he was unbeatable in that division. For whatever reason, despite the two wins, Edgar doesn't command that same level of respect.

The whispers have begun, and many are suggesting that the best fighters in the class don't compete in the UFC Octagon.

That "whatever reason" is a combination of 1) pure shock that BJ was beaten twice in a row at 155 and b) the widespread, ignorant, know-nothing, arrogant prognostication of MMA fans, who - without ever having met Mr. Edgar - think they know what weight he should be at better than he does. Snowden then follows with a rather delusional quote from Bjorn "Son of Winnebago Man" Rebney, Bellator's ~~dictator~~ president, in which he illustrates his belief that Eddie "My Best Win In The Last Two Years is Josh Neer" Alvarez is the true #1 lightweight on Earth. He also reveals his fervent desire (and frequent requests to Coker) regarding a potential Alvarez/Melendez fight. Gee, I wonder why that fight hasn't happened yet? Why wouldn't two small organizations be willing to risk their claim to fame's reputation? Hooray for co-promotion!

The title of Snowden's piece is "Can a Fighter Who Isn't in the UFC Be the World's Best?" The answer is "no". A quarterback who isn't in the NFL can't be the world's best. Same for "pitcher" and "MLB", "power forward" and "NBA", et cetera ad nauseum infinitum. It's over. I had Jake Shields at #2 in not one but two weight classes BEFORE he signed with Zuffa. Melendez/Alvarez could possibly ascend to #2. However, none of this changes the answer to the question - the #1 fighter in every weight class 135-265 is under the Zuffa umbrella, and that's never going to change.

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Comments

fact!

by TDIpowered on Sep 17, 2010 11:20 AM EDT reply actions

Its a tough topic because rankings are so subjective

But I agree, rankings wise I cant see any LW outside of the UFC being 1 ranked first.

Nobody was really talking about Gil all that much prior to his fight with Aoki, and now people seem to be jumping on the bandwagon.

But his article is one of those that are silly for the sake of getting traffic and hits

by NYCman on Sep 17, 2010 11:21 AM EDT reply actions

See that's the thing

I don’t think it’s about traffic at all – I don’t think Snowden gives a shit about that. He’s established already. However, a marketplace where there is ambiguity and debate about who’s #1 across multiple orgs is probably more fun to cover and almost assuredly more profitable. This is just more anti-Zuffa subversion from the master.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Contributor for WatchKalibRun.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Sep 17, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions

Dude...

/sarcasm
SCM aka Black Lesnar aka Wesley Types aka Slap ya Favorite MMA Writer
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 17, 2010 11:38 AM EDT reply actions

…bro

by Derek Suboticki on Sep 17, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions

DUDE!

Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.

by SSreporters on Sep 17, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Sweet

-It's Better To Be Judged By Twelve Than Carried By Six-
(In the name of the SouthCaliStunNa, amen)

by *Californication* on Sep 17, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Is asking the question that big of a deal? Snowden’s article is about as non-commital as they come, I don’t see your point at all.

As far as the best fighter being somewhere else than in the UFC… I don’t know, it could happen. I am not saying it is the case right now, but somebody could ascend to the top by taking all comers outside the UFC and be considered the top guy.

The whole sports world is about creating debate where there isn’t any, I don’t know why you keep that tin-foil hat of yours on all the time with this bullshit anti-Zuffa consipiracy theory. Get a good level cynicism, a few years behind your belt and talk to me then.

by blawa on Sep 17, 2010 11:41 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah I'm not cynical at all

Nobody thinks the NFL should co-promote with the CFL. This sport needs to move beyond the infantile, easily solvable disagreements that have crippled boxing and marred our debate for the past decade. Of course the article is non-committal – plausible deniability is key to subversive activity.

Also, being on probation will make a man powerfully cynical. I don’t think a naive optimist would read what I read into Snowden’s writing.

by Derek Suboticki on Sep 17, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

There is a significant differences between the NFL and the CFL working together and two promotions working together: A lot more owners are involved in one versus the other. The NFL, although limited to a number of people is still somewhat of a democracy, in your model, it is straight monarchy. I would agree that co-promotion might not be the best model in the world but at least it gives a place to compromise, no compromise on the Zuffa front. If you had a powerful fighter’s union, competition commitees, rule commitee…. then there can be checks and balances… otherwise every fighter would be subjected to the all powerful Zuffa with no recourse…

by blawa on Sep 17, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Reading BE makes me stupid

herp derp

by FinanceFrank on Sep 17, 2010 11:49 AM EDT reply actions

you spend too much time on BE

im pretty sure that leads to sterility

my mother was right....no one cares what i have to say

jefferson davis' wife was hot....there i said it....and it actually feels good to finally get that out in the open

by glassjawsh on Sep 17, 2010 11:59 AM EDT reply actions

We’ll know for sure if your mother misses her monthly visitor

by Derek Suboticki on Sep 17, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions

Subo is a BElitist!

Mo Johnston finally fired. Let the house cleaning and road to success begin.

by SSreporters on Sep 17, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions

What about Fedor?

I don’t see any reference to Fedor being the #1 ranked Heavyweight on all rankings for the past five years, although outside of Zuffa, until recently. As for the lack of love for Frank Edgar the past few months, he beat the consensus #1 LW, not once but twice, so I don’t see how this is even a discussion. Although Alvarez and Melendez both deserve spots in the top 10, the competition for either fighter in the UFC would be right on par with them. Same can be said about Ben Henderson who Is never mentioned in these articles.

The MMA world needs to get off BJ’s nads and realize the game has passed him up. He was never that great of a lightweight. He happened to be in a division that stylistically didn’t have an answer for him. Until now.

by RU486 on Sep 17, 2010 3:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

Snowden

I’ve read a lot of his stuff. The guy is smart, a solid writer, and he obviously did a lot of research writing his book about MMA and such. I got his book from the library and read most of it (it was due back, and i’ve been following the sport long enough that the recent stuff is just rehashing stuff I knew) and it become pretty clear where he’s coming from.

The guy has a huge hardon for the Lion’s Den, old school UFC and Japanese MMA as a whole. He spends most of the book glorifying the Gracies, the Shamrocks, and everyone involved in the Lion’s Den, PANCRASE and early PRIDE.

The book then takes a turn on the Zuffa era, spending an entire chapter painting the Fertittas as gangsters (while interesting, I didn’t see anywhere near this level of detail going into the backgrounds of anyone else in the book) and the rest of it is a combination of rapid fire introducing you to the big characters in UFC/PRIDE for the last 10 years and adding in snarky anti-UFC remarks (like saying that Zuffa would never have a better PPV than Liddell-Ortiz)

by Jason H. on Sep 17, 2010 3:46 PM EDT reply actions

Crow tastes good with a little A1.

"Call me Snake"

by KSJ49 on Sep 17, 2010 4:19 PM EDT reply actions

raven even better and they are smarter.

I'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. Glory favors the bold. Chance favors the prepared mind. Luck, well i have that too. University of Utah goes to the Pac-12 conference in 2011. I expect them to compete immediately for the conference CG. Brock Lesnar will defeat Cain Velasquez. The most hated and misunderstood person on the MMA blogs.. Utah and Boise take care of business in week one. Don't be surprised if they both go undefeated.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Sep 18, 2010 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions

I'm disappointed.

When I clicked the comments, I thought for sure a couple geeks would call you a “UFC fanboy”. BTW, anybody who says fanboy is a fag.

Hadoken!!

by Brizzle T on Sep 17, 2010 4:27 PM EDT reply actions

You just made me a fanboy of the banhammer.

Mothers know nothing about creeping marauders burrowing through the snow toward the kitchen where only you and you alone stand between your tiny, huddled family and insensate evil.

by Barack Lesnar on Sep 17, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Kikuno is a bigger win than Neer.

I honestly can’t tell if that last part is sarcasm or not. The UFC-NFL analogy is an awful one and just because Dana White says it, doesn’t mean it’s true.

the #1 fighter in every weight class 135-265 is under the Zuffa umbrella, and that’s never going to change

That’s honestly pathetic if you think that.

MMA > The UFC

by Renny on Sep 17, 2010 5:00 PM EDT reply actions

Pathetic?

Please explain. Can you find a media outlet anywhere that doesn’t rank a UFC/WEC fighter #1 in their division? I’m sure you can find some idiot on a forum, but then I could find someone who still thinks Rickson would beat everyone in MMA today.

Brock/Shogun/Anderson/GSP/Edgar/Aldo/Cruz is pretty much unanimous. The longer these other guys stay in B-level orgs fighting B-level talent the farther they’re going to fall off the ladder.

Your sig line sums it up, you’re one of the staunch anti UFC people for some reason, but accept the reality that UFC is leaps and bounds ahead of their next closest competitor in every division.

I love watching SF, DREAM, KoTC and whatever else pops on HDNet, but I really can’t grasp the mindset that wants to keep splitting the best fighters off to different orgs so they won’t fight each other.

by Jason H. on Sep 17, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the main issue is the word “never”. Thinking that Zuffa will always and forever hold the #1 fighter in every weight class is a very bold statement, especially when you consider that Fedor was still many people’s number 1 HW earlier this year. I think it’s a realistic possibility, but we need to see how things unfold the next couple of years before firmly stating no competitors will have the #1 fighter in any weight class ever again.

Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by Kaleb Kelchner on Sep 17, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

the paradigm will shift one day and the ufc won't be number one anymore. plus i like the ufc but they are making mistakes.

give it 8 years and we will see what happens.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Sep 18, 2010 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions

If you think that the UFC will continue to hold the best fighter in every weight class they have fights in for the rest of time you’re incredibly naive. The list of amazing fighters outside the UFC could go on forever, as well as the list of fighters outside the UFC that have potential to reach that number one status.

With the HW division of Strikeforce currently as good, if not better than the UFC’s, it’s realistic to think that should one fighter dominate that division, his name would be at the top of the HW rankings.

Wanting a monopoly for MMA best is a ridiculous concept, how on earth do you expect to see the best fighters fighting each other 3-4 times a year when they would have to have 5 weight class of top 10 guys going at each other constantly?

So by my sig you can tell I’m anti-UFC, that’s odd since I’ve never stated that. I believe that one organization should not be compared to the NFL, especially when that’s an insane and outrageously incorrect comparison. I believe that fans chanting “U-F-C U-F-C” is HORRENDOUS for the sport and that fans who ONLY follow the UFC should put down Dana’s “cool-aid”.

MMA > The UFC

by Renny on Sep 18, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions

Here here!

I’m digging this theory. Errrr, rather, I’m digging your defense of it. I haven’t read Snowden.

http://twitter.com/scoozna

by scoozna on Sep 17, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions

I'd have to agree

I have been a long term BE, MMA mania, and WKR lurker. I noticed the things you said in your first article are true concerning BE. Edgar beat the champ, the long term #1 guy and so called best lightweight ever in BJ Penn. This is after he beat several other top lightweights to get to that point. Alvarez, Melendez, Aoki, etc are all great fighters. I loved Alvarez’s beatdown of Neer. But they did not beat the #1 guy who until recently looked unstoppable

Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex

by sitnam90 on Sep 17, 2010 8:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

While you don't need to beat the best in order to ascend to that level,

it is a well-accepted method of ascending to the top plateau. Fedor had beaten a bunch of top level guys back in the PRIDE days, and even managed to meat-grinder every former UFC champion castoff brought to him in the interim. But the reason his legacy and ranking stood for so long was simply because of the overall body of work, and his ridiculous record. He hadn’t truly beaten the best for many years.

Now that he’s done for, at least in terms of maintaining the top spot on someone’s paper, there aren’t any truly outstanding fighters out there for whom the case can be made that their body of work far outstrips any Zuffa/UFC counterpart’s.

Barring a run through prominent, top level recent Zuffa castoffs, there just isn’t a mechanism for anyone outside their organization to claim the top spot. A top five, sure. That’s actually easier to do outside Zuffa than inside, since everyone (and I do mean everyone, it’s normal human psychology) likes to try to find the one underdog/unproven example to put into the conversation of who is ‘best.’

If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...

by misterjonez on Sep 17, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Good point

This is why Fedor loses to Werdum and Lesnar.became #1 instead of Werdum. Fedor’s criticism before was the number of low ranking opponets he faced. From a natural middleweight (Lindland) to HMC (freakshow fight) to Rogers (likeable and good, but not THAT good.) to castoff Zuffa champs (Arvloski,Sylvia)

BJ Penn never had this type of criticism. At the time of their fights Penns opponets during his LW title run were all (IIRC) top ten guys. And he smashed everyone. That’s why I think earning the #1 spot from him is more sensible that UFC castoff Werdum getting the spot over Fedor. Le

Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex

by sitnam90 on Sep 17, 2010 10:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

Yep.

People will go through whatever mental gymnastics they have to in order to maintain their slippery grip on the pseudo-realities they construct for themselves. We’re all guilty of it, it’s just that some people can admit when they have been guilty of it, while others cling steadfastly to their illusions, shrieking like banshees at all who would dare question their position’s credibility.

It’s part of what makes double standards so dangerous. They usually serve to obfuscate reality in some weird attempt to support someone’s (usually outrageous) position.

If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...

by misterjonez on Sep 18, 2010 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions

who cares? everyone at bloodyelbow is horrible at writing

by Hungry Troll on Sep 18, 2010 9:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Says the hungry troll. hehe

Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at WatchKalibRun

by Kaleb Kelchner on Sep 18, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd suggest that it says more about how high up there Penn was

As Edgar had never been in the same conversation as “the elites” (i.e. the champions) until the UFC 112 “fluke” — it took the rematch to signify “holy smokes, he IS the real deal… or BJ Penn had yet another off night,” and even then we were talking about the chance that Gray Maynard might LNP his way, having done so before… it’s still “too new” for some of us to be considering Edgar vs. Melendez, or Edgar vs. Aoki…

So for some people I think BJ Penn still overshadows Edgar.

by Chortles on Sep 19, 2010 7:02 PM EDT reply actions