Controlling the Dominance of Wrestling in MMA
by RU486 on Sep 6, 2010 1:11 PM EDT
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PrintWith criticism of wrestlers in Mixed Martial Arts reaching an all-time high for their seemingly uneventful fights and lack of finishes, fans are left with a dilemma: Will wrestling be the demise of MMA?
There seems to be an uprising amongst fans of Mixed Martial Arts in every corner of the sport's fan base concerning the consistent trend towards fighters with a strong base in amateur wrestling dominating almost every division in every major promotion. Some accuse the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts as giving the wrestler a distinct advantage, and the obviously flawed "10 Point Must" scoring system putting too much emphasis on the importance of takedowns, leaving fighters from a wrestling pedigree doing "just enough" to eke out decisions in fights by executing a couple of well-timed takedowns and following them with relative inactivity. To the casual fan of the spectacle of MMA, this is a potential problem since they are the majority of the paying audience, and purchase Pay-Per-Views to see exciting fights. Digging deeper into the circle of MMA including the fighters themselves, the trainers, promoters, and most hardcore of fans, the conundrum takes a different form: How to control the dominance of wrestlers in MMA while retaining the integrity of the competition in the sport?
Wrestling has been an integral part of MMA since the beginning with the emergence of fighters like Dan Severn, Don Frye, and Mark Coleman having success with their takedowns and control. Second generation wrestlers like Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, and Kevin Randleman took the base formula a step further and figured out the apparent bias towards their craft in the rule book and used it to their advantage. But in the most recent years there has been a huge resurgence of wrestlers engineering a style of wrestling in MMA that enables them to continue winning while receiving or inflicting very little damage. This is not a trend that is likely to go away any time soon. Modern MMA puts entirely too much focus on fighters' records, therefore it is in the fighters' best interest to stay healthy and continue winning, regardless of how well (or bad) the outcome is. Winning seems to be the only factor in whether a fighter continues to get paid.
This is nothing new to MMA. In the not-so distant past there was a seemingly problematic trend in the dominance of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It seemed that after Royce Gracie laid down the framework for Jiu Jitsu in MMA, there was a huge assimilation of BJJ into the sport with nearly every credible BJJ practitioner transitioning to MMA with overwhelming success. The rest of the sport didn't know how to deal with them. Similar criticism arose, accusing bias in the rule book towards Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and enabling its practitioners to flourish, harnessing an unfair advantage. The sport found its own remedy. Everyone learned Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Now there is no advantage.
In a similar fashion, it is up to the fighters to find a way to nullify the effectiveness of wrestling in Mixed Martial Arts. The obvious solution would be for more fighters to learn efficient wrestling and takedown defense. Another option would be for fighters to adapt their game to be more offensive from the bottom position. The execution of submissions from the bottom is something we are seeing less and less of. After seeing Anderson Silva batter Chael Sonnen with elbows and punches from the bottom position (while losing the fight on the scorecards) en route to a slick triangle choke to finish the fight, the answer is clear.
The most reasonable solution will arise out of the problem itself. As more and more wrestlers convert to MMA, the stables of fighters will increasingly fill with those from a wrestling pedigree. In the ongoing assimilation of wrestling into MMA's ranks, the wrestlers will nullify themselves. Strong takedowns will be equalized with strong takedown defense, resulting in an exciting stand-up war between two fighters outside of their comfort zone. Josh Koscheck vs Diego Sanchez come to mind?
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Great read
I wish I had the power to FP this.
/sarcasm
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To add
No one seems to mind wrestling when it serves their purpose. The Chael Sonnen/Anderson Silva match was pedestrian technically as Sonnen did nothing with his takedowns but smother Anderson. You can’t love that and then get upset if another fighter employs the same technique.
/sarcasm
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You bring up an interesting angle, which makes me ask a question I hadn't considered.
DID the people who want the Fitch/Kos/GSP style of fighters tarred and feathered actually enjoy the Sonnen/Silva fight? It seems to me the community is divided, probably just a little off of 50/50 toward the anti-wrestler crowd, if the online community is any indication.
It really seems to me that the majority of the torch-bearers simply dislike wrestlers, their attitudes and their style, rather than disliking boring fights. Mostly, the people who are coronating Cigano as the T-1000, almost as a unified entity, dislike wrestlers in general.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
i’d hardly call when Chael postured up and punched from a semi standing position smothering him. tell Nate about Chael just smothering him.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Sep 8, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
S.C. is on a crusaide against Chael Sonnen.
Don’t argue with him ;)
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Pain don't hurt...
No crusade
His match was just as “boring” as any other match. It was just not “boring” to others because “OMGITZCHAEL!”
/sarcasm
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 14, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I reject the premise that the primary reason to enjoy that match is marking out for Chael.
I enjoy those types of matches. I think many other people do, as well. I liked the hype job Chael put on for the Anderson fight, but I’ve always been a fan of positional control fighters like him who dictate the action. Some people prefer counterpunchers. It’s ok, I mean Floyd Mayweather is the all-time PPV king, and the guy hasn’t pushed a hotly-contested round of action in his entire life.
There are certainly people who mark out for Chael and will declare anything he does to be divine, but I think those people are in the minority.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Rec'd
Quality post but one little problem with this idea
The sport found its own remedy. Everyone learned Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Now there is no advantage
a bit of truth there, but a large portion of what makes wrestling so effective is the physical advantage that being a amateur (freestyle? I don’t know enough of the ins an outs of it all) wrestler. The condition these guys are in is unreal, and to think that all they are doing is laying on a guy is irrational, it takes a large amount of skill and an even greater level of conditioning to hold someone on their back, sure it doesn’t lead to the most exiting style itself, but it’s extremely effective under the current rule system. The problem is two fold to me, takedowns, and “octagon control” are weighted too heavily and the 10 point must system just really doesn’t work for MMA.
Kind of off topic, but the reality is that the powers that be took away the wrestlers most effective offensive weapon when trying to get MMA sanctioned, the headbutt. I believe that Big John talked about how much it took away from the wrestlers at the time (in specific he spoke about it hurting Mark Coleman) in an interview on sherdog quite a while ago, which I’m not going to dig up. Think of it like this, if a wrestler was still allowed to use their offensive headbutt, we wouldn’t be having this conversation all over the internet, because wrestlers would finish fights more often.
My 2 cents
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
by Kidroll on Sep 7, 2010 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not only did they take away headbutts (which I think most would agree was a prudent move),
but they took away knees to the head of a downed opponent, and some organizations in the past had gone so far as to eliminate all elbows on the ground. Even in the Unified Rules the 12-6 elbows are disallowed, which is just another weapon removed from the GnP arsenal.
Bottom line is that wrestlers have been at least as affected by the rules changes as any other style (BJJ, one could argue, suffered the single greatest setback when they disallowed the gi).
I agree with your point about wrestlers being superior conditioned athletes. I’ve long argued that the superior conditioning, probably more than technical prowess or technique match-ups, is what puts wrestlers at the top of the MMA landscape. I haven’t gotten much traction, which makes me think I’m onto something.
Much of the time, the complaints about one skill dominating are simply a collective attempt to change the rules in some way the group desires, rather than a legitimate complaint about fairness or quality. In this case, I think it’s pretty much impossible to take away a wrestler’s conditioning, so nobody talks about it.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Sep 7, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wrestlers being superior conditioned athletes has alot to do with it, but positional control while being very effective to the “fight” is made overly effective in the rules, and the judges weigh the takedown so greatly, but it really doesn’t appear (to my eyes, but who knows what the judges think really) that they weigh things like sprawling or negating takedowns nearly as much. It seems to be a tough nut to crack, seeing how sprawls really don’t do any damage but takedowns, suplexes (suplexi?) and slams in general can do some damage. I’ve always seen the wrestlers get the short shrift online, but the reality is that the best US combat athletes are going to have a collegiate wrestling background, so as long as the UFC has dominance in the market it is going to behoove them to make rulesets that “help” the traditional collegiate wrestler out.
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
And that's pretty unreadable
Sorry but I’m juggling my 3 year old, typing and rocking out to the greatness that is Question the Answers (the Bosstones before they were terrible)
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
I once KO'd a guy with a well-timed sprawl.
We were doing sprawl drills, and I had a guy forty pounds heavier than myself shooting in, while I had my hands clasped behind my back. The drill was to work on balance and dictating lateral control using only your hips during a sprawl, so as not to get confused by having your hands in the way.
I really snapped the sprawl down with my hip to the back of this guy’s head, and he was out stone-cold for what seemed to be about a minute before he started groaning and rolling around. That was pretty funny, especially considering how cocky that guy was.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
That is a valid point.
But in my closing paragraph I stated that solution was within the problem itself, and as more and more amateur wrestlers infiltrate MMA the pool will be saturated with wrestlers and will nullify each other. I’m sure there will still be a select elite fewthat will take others down at will (ala GSP) but for the most part the superior takedowns will be neutralized by superior takedown defense.
If every division was chock full of mostly guys like GSP, Matt Lindland, Daniel Cormier, Randy Couture and Josh Koscheck, the wrestling aspect would be a moot point. When the wrestlers realize they no longer have that distinct advantage over their opponents, they will be forced to use other tactics.
so you are saying that eventually the takedown for the sake of the takedown will be gone because everyone will have developed mega sprawls or BJJ games that just destroy…I don’t know if we will come to an era of a bunch of Chuck Liddells running the ufc, he was a different sort of animal, I’d like to see it, but I doubt it’s coming in the foreseeable future
Jonathan Snowden: The Glenn Beck of MMA reporting.
Not at all
What I’m saying is that when Cain Velasquez faces off against Brock Lesnar, we are likely to see a stalemate as far as wrestling is concerned and a diversion to other methods. And as more and more wrestlers transition to MMA, the result is likely to be very common.
It's an interesting position, that will be tested twice in coming months
when Edgar/Maynard and Lesnar/Velasquez come to fruition. We’ll learn if two great wrestlers really do essentially nullify each other’s positional control game.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that wrestling is still center-stage in those fights, and that those fights will be anything but boring, however most of the online community will still pan them because there won’t be fifteen positional reversals and a dozen submission attempts to create those reversals.
But then, I enjoy a good scramble series, and I also enjoy seeing just who is the superior grappler between two widely-hyped technicians.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Edgar and Cain are not on the levels of Maynard and Brock
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by S.C. Michaelson on Sep 8, 2010 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions
While that's true,
I don’t think it makes the question any less interesting or telling. The major complaint is that wrestlers, when they have a massive technical superiority over their opponent (meaning, their opponent isn’t a wrestler) they have a tendency to create boring fights.
When two high-quality wrestlers clash, there are two possible outcomes that history can provide examples for. Firstly, the grappling exchanges are high-tension and hotly contested affairs, with the striking differential dictating who will initiate takedowns. The second option is that neither fighter will attempt the takedown, basically conceding a stalemate in that department, and we get treated to sloppy boxing/kickboxing.
Either one is far from a boring affair. But I think I agree with you that in terms of pure wrestling ability, the smaller guys are not as good as their larger opponents
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
i would say a key difference is jiu-jitsu guys are looking to finish…not simply hammerfisting while laying in half-guard.
there is a big difference in the “looking to finish part”, as a spectator and as a proponent of the sport.
the whole angle of the ufc with no time limits was that you fought to the finish. fighting to finish is in the core of the sport b/c of the original implication of no time limits, no rounds, no restarts.
that is why so much of the hate can be ingrained in fans of the sport.
we don’t mind when it’s GSP who does what he did to Fitch and Alves b/c they looked like they were in a car accident afterward. Or Chael vs Nate b/c they were cut and bloody and banged up. that is a fight.
it’s when a guy gets 2 well-timed takedowns in 3 rounds and wins 2 out of 3 rounds having not even engaged on the feet for the most part or just danced until he could bait the other guy to follow him then work for 1 takedown in an entire round. that is what fans are lamenting.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Sep 8, 2010 4:41 PM EDT reply actions
Stuck at work, and trying not to be grumpy
Here’s the way I see this issue: grappling/wrestling is a dimension of positioning like footwork is. You need both to be good at fighting.
If you cannot implement your tools, you need more training or weaker competition.
This also applies to wrestlers who are controlling position, but not skilled in implementing tools to finish from said position. Perhaps we need some amateur leagues? COUGHWECCOUGH
If people want striking without the threat of range-changing there is always K1, Muay Thai, and I think there might even still be the WCL.
Jab, jab, towards, short, fierce.
Good point, which doesn't get brought up often enough.
Positional control (wrestling takedowns, scrambles, reversals, TD defense, etc..) is the same in MMA as footwork is in boxing/kickboxing. It’s simply part of controlling the terrain of a battle. You’ll never eliminate it, and some people will never like it.
The reason the Spartans did so well at Thermopylae was simply because they dictated where the fight would take place. There isn’t a better combat example of terrain control leading to success than that particular engagement. Some people just want raw carnage, though. You can’t please them unless someone’s head is flying from a spinning back elbow or something. Then for other, more reasonable people, they just think it slows the pace of the action down. That’s true, and it’s also less action-packed/explosive. But if we really want this thing to be a true sport, then controlling the terrain will always be a major factor in success.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
by misterjonez on Sep 13, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
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